1 2 Previous Next 40 Replies Latest reply on Feb 12, 2012 12:44 PM by John Hawkinson

    Non-English page numbers/lists

    preahkumpii Level 1

      Hello.

       

      I have ID CS4. I am working on a doc that needs non-English (Latin) numbers as the page numbers. The doc has about 2,500 pages, and I do not want to do this manually. I have looked all over the place for a solution and have found nothing even romotely close. Anyone have an idea how to do this? Thanks.

       

      Adam

        • 1. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
          Michael Gianino Level 4

          preahkumpii wrote:

           

          …non-English (Latin) numbers…

          I'm not sure if that means what I call Roman numbers (I, II, III, IV, etc.) or something else. If you do mean Roman numbers, it's very easy.

           

          First, since I don't know how well you know ID, I can't assume anything, so no offense if I tell you something you already know. You need a text frame on your master page (one on each, if you have facing pages) with a page-number placeholder (Type>Insert Special Character>Markers>Current Page Number, or the keyboard shortcut shift option command n). Next, go to the first page, and from the fly-out of the Pages pallet, choose Numbering and Section Options. There, you can set the style of the page number to one of eight choices, including Roman upper case and Roman lower case.

           

          If you meant something else, please describe what you mean, and maybe I or someone else can help you.

          • 2. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
            preahkumpii Level 1

            Thank you for your reply.

             

            I would say I am not a novice, but not an expert. By non-English page numbering I am referring to numbers such as Chinese, Cyrillic, etc. In my case I am using Khmer (Cambodian) numbers.

             

            Adam

            • 3. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
              Michael Gianino Level 4

              Oh, I see. You meant that English and Latin numbers were the same (because English uses the Latin alphabet), and I thought you were making a distinction between the two. Sorry, my mistake.

               

              There are expert users on this forum who can answer questions about Asian languages, but if you don't get another reply in a while, you might want to make a new topic with Khmer Numbering somewhere in the title.

              • 4. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                Joel is the man for this, but If I'm not mistaken, I think Khmer uses "indic" numbering. I would bet that this might be something activated by the World Ready composer, or an option if you use Harbs' World Tools plugin from In-Tools.com.

                • 5. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                  preahkumpii Level 1

                  I already use the World-Ready Composer for the text in the body of the document. So, I am familiar with that. The only thing I cannot figure out is how to make a custom list and number the pages with it.

                   

                  Adam

                  • 6. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    I don't have the WRC turned on here, so I can't check, but I was hoping that would expand the list of options for numbering styles in the Numbering and Section Options, so you could just use a current page marker. If not, waht happens if you select a current page marker, set the option to 1,2,3... and then change the language to Arabic? Do you get the correct numerals?

                     

                    If you want to use a custom list, the fast way is to make it in Excel, then save as a text file, but I'm not sure that will work any better. As I said, this is outside my area, but Joel will probably check in about 8 more hours.

                    • 7. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                      preahkumpii Level 1

                      No, the numbering options do not change. If I could make a custom list in a text file, say 1-3,000 in Khmer, and place it in a particular folder for the program to see, that would be ideal. I just haven't found anything that says this can be done.

                       

                      Adam

                      • 8. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        Are you applying a Khmer font ?

                        • 9. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                          preahkumpii Level 1

                          Yes...the Khmer font is fully Unicode, so it has all standard English glyphs as well as appropriate Khmer glyphs as the appropriate code points. So, if the program calls English numbers, it will display them, not Khmer.

                          • 10. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            I think we need to wait for Joel...

                            • 11. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                              Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Well, when I've needed to do page numbering using Khmer numerals, or Burmese, or Lao, or etc., I have only used workarounds. (One of 'em is actually a workaround I originally learned from Peter that he mentioned, which I will describe in a bit more detail) They're all bad. A script might be a better idea, but I suggest that you submit a feature request, as will I, because I'm hoping for decent international support by CS8 or so.

                               

                              1) Use a bad font! You know, like Limon, or some other font that has Khmer numerals mapped onto the Arabic numeral codepoints. That way you can use a page number placeholder on the master page.

                              2) Your number-list idea is a good one, but InDesign can't just use your number list. What I did was this:

                                 a) Make a list of 300 Burmese numbers in raw text

                                 b) Set up the margins so that the "main text area" was where I wanted my page numbers

                                 c) Make sure that Layout -> Layout Adjustment is off (this is necessary for step e. below)

                                 d) Place the number text file, holding down shift so it auto-flows

                                 e) Change your margins back to your desired settings - the number-containing text boxes should remain where they are

                              3) Edit a font to put your preferred numeral system. Ugh. I did this for a client, once, in 2007, and I still feel dirty.

                              4) Feature request to Harbs for more numbering options in World Tools - I haven't tried this one yet but I bet it's your only chance to get Khmer numbering before CS8.

                               

                              Proof that no. 3 must be doable in one way or another... here's English ID's options in numbering formats:

                              ENID.png

                               

                              and in World Tools (CS4)

                              WorldTOols.png

                               

                              ... so it must be possible. I have found Adobe to be about as responsive as a hunk of marble when asking for properly-implemented multilingual support. Asking Harbs if the numeral options in World Tools can be expanded to include SE Asian script(s) might be your best bet.

                               

                              As a side note: I know that it's useless, but I can't stop telling people what number systems are actually called.

                               

                              1 2 3 4 5: Arabic numerals

                              ١ ٢ ٣ ٤ ٥: Hindi numerals

                              I II III IV V: Roman numerals

                               

                              sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now.

                              • 12. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                "morning, Joel.

                                 

                                You're in early.

                                 

                                Sorry for my bad naming of Hindi numerals. And yeah, that expanded list of options was waht I was hoping WRC would provide, but I guess it's a World Tools feature?

                                 

                                So waht was my workaround? If #2, I wonder why the whole rigamarole with changing margins? My memory is shot.

                                • 13. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                  Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  The idea I took from you was simply "place a big ol' text file of your preferred enumeration." And it's not you that I'm calling out w/r/t improper naming of numbering systems, it's the whole Anglosphere.   Pretty much every conversation I have with people who aren't involved in some kind of multilingual biz has at some point ground to a halt when the other party has said "But I don't mean Arabic numbers, I mean English numbers."

                                   

                                  The margin-juggling was so that I could place my list of 2000 Burmese page numbers and have 'em autoflow. There are probably three or four easier ways to do it, but as you've already observed, it's early yet - at least it is for people who live on the left coast and stay up late struggling with corrupt book files. What's the way to place 2000 tiny text frames for page numbering that actually makes sense?

                                  • 14. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    Joel Cherney wrote:

                                    What's the way to place 2000 tiny text frames for page numbering that actually makes sense?

                                    Put one on the master page? Pre-style the insertion point, then autoflow from the first docuement page.

                                    • 15. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                      preahkumpii Level 1

                                      Wow Joel,

                                       

                                      You seem to know your stuff with Khmer numerals, even knowing the difference between Unicode and Limon fonts. I thought only someone who works exclusively with Khmer would understand those differences. I am interested in the master-page auto flow idea. I have an idea to try with that. I will get back with you if it works. If all else fails I will have to resort the very undesirable usage of legacy Khmer fonts.

                                       

                                      As for the numbering lists used in World-Tools, I think you are right that there has to be a way to put additional lists into Indesign. But, how that is done...?

                                       

                                      Thanks for the note on Arabic numerals...I learned something new today!

                                       

                                      Adam

                                      • 16. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                        preahkumpii Level 1

                                        Joel, Peter,

                                         

                                        I appears that your idea worked. I did not have Enable Layout Adjustment turned on, so I didn't have to worry about that. I took Joel's idea of setting the margins in the master page and putting a number list in a text box that would auto fill through the document. The only thing I did differently was I replaced the carriage returns in the number list with frame breaks. So, though not ideal, I have a large measure of control over the page numbers and the way they look. Thanks for your help.

                                         

                                        Adam

                                        • 17. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                          I'm going to jump back in and talk abot the flowing of number lists a little, because I think you've made it more complex than necessary.

                                           

                                          A number list is, by its nature. just a series of paragraphs that each contain a single word (one number). There are basically two ways to ensure that a text frame used to hold the list will, in fact, never have more than one number in it. The first is to make the frame height short enough that it can only hold one line, but this isn't editing friendly. The second is to use a paragraph style for the text that goes into the frames, and in that style set a keep option to start in next frame. You can include this paragraph style in an object style appled to the frame, or simply put the cursor in the empty frame on the master page and apply the paragraph style. If your number list is plain text it will pick up the styling applied on the master page.

                                           

                                          This might not work out as expected for your Khmer list though, so can you explain how your list is formatted? Do you need to do something special to it get the correct numerals (Hindi?)? Does the list use 1,2,3... or the unincode points for the alternate numerals.

                                           

                                          I suspect that if the number list is, say, a formatted Word doc and you keep the formatting, you could map the style to an ID style, or edit it after import to include the keep option.

                                          • 18. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                            preahkumpii Level 1

                                            Khmer numerals are mapped to different code points than Arabic numerals. The list I made is purely a plain text list. I applied the formatting after putting it into ID.

                                            • 19. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                              OK pardon my density, I've never worked wih anything like this. Does that mean you can use an ordinary 1,2,3.. list of arabic numerals and format them to Khmer using a style, is you list built of some other sequence of characters that might not be quite as easy to build as using auto-fill in Excel?

                                              • 20. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                preahkumpii Level 1

                                                Yes and No. You cannot use ordinary arabic numbers. You must use the Khmer numerals which have a designated place in the Unicode standard. However, as of Excel 2007 you can do an auto-fill with Khmer numbers and it works correctly. That is how I made the list.

                                                • 21. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                  OK, then if I understand correctly you should be able to pres-style the master frame with a font and the keep option and place the raw list without formatting.

                                                  • 22. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                    Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    Well, Peter, thanks for making me less afraid of text frames on master pages; I tried that today in Burmese, and it did not blow up in my face the way it did the last times I tried it (in Quark, during the 20th century). Much, much easier than my silly workaround, Preah, pay attention to Peter here, not me.

                                                     

                                                    Different languages are treated in different ways by Microsoft Office products; I will have to investigate Excel 2010 because I have never trusted Word's numeral representation. For Hindi numerals used in Arabic, there are settings in Word that will automatically convert numerals depending on language settings, but these Word settings don't seem to change the display of numerals from SE Asian scripts. I'll have to investigate this further.

                                                     

                                                    Each of these numeral groups have their own Unicode codepoints, Peter, so that the only way to change Arabic numerals to, say, Lao numerals is with a script that hunts down codepoint 0031 (plain ol' no. 1), adds 3744 (hex EA0) to 0031, which results in hex 0ED1, Lao numeral 1. Mind you, I've not tested that, it's straight out of my head so I don't know if it'd work. But it's not style-able as you suggested a few posts back.

                                                     

                                                    Lastly:

                                                    As for the numbering lists used in World-Tools, I think you are right that there has to be a way to put additional lists into Indesign. But, how that is done...?

                                                     

                                                    By being an InDesign plugin developer, something which I know nothing about. But we have a forum regular who develops some really useful plugins if you are doing multilingual work in InDesign.

                                                     

                                                    I thought only someone who works exclusively with Khmer would understand those differences.

                                                     

                                                    No, just as there are translators and other language professionals who can't use InDesign, there are DTP/localization pros like me who know all about text processing in Khmer and Lao and Amharic and Russian and Persian, yet can't speak any of these languages. I work in a firm that specializes in languages used by populations with refugee status in the States, hence my heavy exposure to scripts from Southeast Asia. (Which, by the way, are to my mind both the hardest to work with in contemporary DTP tools, and also the most fun to stare at for hours on end as I typeset yet another health care handbook in a beautiful language I can't read. )

                                                    • 23. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                      Joel and adam, thank you both for the ongoing clarifications. I'm learning a lot.

                                                       

                                                      Joel, it seems to me that if the conversion to the codepoint turns out to be as easily scripted as you think it might be, styling could perhaps both work and be of benefit. The "bad" numbers could be placed, prestyled, and then at the end you could run such a script looking only for that style if you wanted to get very selective.

                                                      • 24. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                        preahkumpii Level 1

                                                        Which, by the way, are to my mind both the hardest to work with in contemporary DTP tools

                                                        Yep, I think this is true. I mostly work with Khmer, but have some experience with Burmese, Thai, and Lao. When I found out about the hidden World-Ready Composer in InDesign I was very happy. However, I have noticed some significant bugs with its rendering of Khmer, which Microsoft has gotten right every time without exception (in my experience). These bugs have forced me to use only certain fonts and do work arounds. I still am very thankful for the Composer nevertheless.

                                                         

                                                        But we have a forum regular who develops some really useful plugins if you are doing multilingual work in InDesign.

                                                        So, does he develop them on a personal basis or mainly for distribution on his site?

                                                         

                                                        OK, then if I understand correctly you should be able to pres-style the master frame with a font and the keep option and place the raw list without formatting.

                                                        I understand what you saying. But are you also saying to place the numbered list in the masterframe as well; that is, the master frame on the master page?

                                                        • 25. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                          preahkumpii Level 1

                                                          I don't think I understood correctly. I applied the paragraph style to the master page spread for the page numbers (with the keep options for next frame). Then I placed the number list in the first page number frame in the master page and it just continued to the next master page. So every spread in the document says 1 and 2 respectively . Did I miss something? I am thinking that although you didn't explicitly state it, you mean to place the numbers in the frames on the actual document pages.

                                                          • 26. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                            preahkumpii wrote:

                                                            Then I placed the number list in the first page number frame in the master page and it just continued to the next master page. So every spread in the document says 1 and 2 respectively . Did I miss something? I am thinking that although you didn't explicitly state it, you mean to place the numbers in the frames on the actual document pages.

                                                            Yes. You can use empty master text frames as placeholders. You can use them with text in them for things you want to appear on many pages but type once, like a header, by typing in them on the master page, but if you leave them blank (and this is true for image frames as well) you can place text into them from your document page just as if they were on the live pages. As the text flows in they will be automatically overridden ontothe document page, but they maintain a link to the master frame for non-altered attributes, so if you need to move them, for example, or change the size, or add a background color, as long as you haven't done any of those things to an overridden frame changes you make to the master frame will be reflected on the document pages as well.

                                                             

                                                            To place your list into the master frame, go to page one, load the list into the cursor, move it over the area of the master frame (DO NOT override the master text frame manually first), hold Shift, and click. You'll know yo are using the existing frame because the little icon in the cursor will change from a hard upper left corner to surrounding parentheses. Make sure you click in an otherwise empty area inside the frame, away from the edge or any guides, or ID will draw a new frame on the page instead and will not use your master frames. Watch the cursor for the change.

                                                             

                                                            Harbs is a really nice guy. If you contact him, I'm sure he would be willing to talk to you about custom plugins, or adding functionality to his exisiting products (which would cost you less, I expect).

                                                            • 27. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                              preahkumpii Level 1

                                                              Thanks. I don't understand one thing. I thought that if apply a paragraph style to the master frame for the page numbers that when I place the text in the document frame it would follow that style. It is not...it is like picking a random style of mine and applying that instead. I don't really understand the usage of the master frames that well. I know you can place them for auto-flow, but as far as the styles are concerned how to you use the master frames to set the styles. If I change the position of the master frame will all the document frames change with it?

                                                              • 28. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                You can pre-apply a style to the insertion point in the master frame. If you flow text and it doesn't honor that style then you have a style or formatting applied in the document you are flowing and are preserving it in the import options. In this case, you want raw text so ID can apply the formatting.

                                                                 

                                                                If you don't move the frames on the document pages after you flow the text, any move you make to the master frame will update on the document pages. Likewise for size changes. You want to avoid doing anything to what was a master frame on the document page as much as possible so that you can continue to control it from the master page and make the changes iin only one place.

                                                                • 29. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                  preahkumpii Level 1

                                                                  Thanks. I must say I am having a lot of trouble over here. One reason is that my document is over 2,500 pages long. Here is what I did. In my A-Master spread, I have the margins set for the main body of the book. I haven't changed those at all. So, I on that master spread, on the left side, I put a text frame at the bottom. Then I do the same on the right side of the spread at the same position. Then, I select the left text frame, click the small box for auto-flow and click on the right text frame to link them together. Now, the first page in my document is a right-side page. So, I to File->Place... and place a plain text file with no formatting at all. In the import options everything is unchecked. The little place icon appears next to the cursor. Then on that first page, I hold shift an place it over the dotted frame of the master text frame. Then it takes so long that after and hour of waiting for autoflow, I have to end the ID process (Windows) just to get it to stop. So, I have a suspicion that either something isn't linked right for autoflow or since the margins are set for the main body of the book, that it is trying to autoflow into the main body instead of the next successive footer text frame, which may be why it is take so long, because it is re-autoflowing 2,500 full pages of text, instead of just the footers. Anything ring a bell?

                                                                  • 30. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                    Well, for sure something is not right. What you described SOUNDS correct, though.

                                                                     

                                                                    First, the frames are actually large enough to hold the numbers, right? If they are too small to hold the whole leading slug it might be a problem with ID adding pages forever to try to get a frame that isn't overset. With that in mind, try making the frames deeper than you think they need to be and see if it helps.

                                                                     

                                                                    Second, how long is the list? This technique has some downside in that it doesn't update page numbering automatically. If you list is 5,000 numbers long and you try to flow the whole thing you will end up with 5,000 pages. I don't think that's more than allowed, but it's a lot. In many ways you might want to wait until the page count is final to add the numbers (you could put a current page number marker on the master page someplace to help you keep track, then either remove it or set its attributes to non-printing before final output).

                                                                     

                                                                    I don't know if this is documented anywhere, but if you hold BOTH Alt and Shift keys while placing text, it will autoflow only into the existing pages, but will not add new ones, so an excessively long list can be used to fill what you have, and the rest would become overset, and if you add more pages you could pick up the overset and 'semi-autoflow' again to the end of the added pages, or if you wait to the last minute, you can make your number list just the correct length.

                                                                     

                                                                    I'm finding this very curious, and of course difficult to diagnose without the actual file. I'm about to go out for a few hours, but if you like you can send me the file (and the number list) and I'll take a look at it here. Joel may have some ideas, too. He's a lot samrter than he let's on about this stuff.

                                                                     

                                                                    I'm going to send you a Private Message with an upload link and instructions for sahring with me. I'll understand completely if you don't want to do that.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                      preahkumpii Level 1

                                                                      No problem. I don't mind sending it over. I will have to wait until I have some free time to do so also. The file is very large, so don't be surprised if it takes a while to load and manipulate.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                        John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                                        I must say I am having a lot of trouble over here. One reason is that my document is over 2,500 pages long.

                                                                        You might want to test the technique on a short document until you're sure you are doing it right...

                                                                        • 33. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                          For non-western numbers you need a plugin for world publishing as in-tool.com or others offer. With that tool you have the possibility to choose that language.

                                                                          It is important that the paragraph style of the page number has the language of that number system. E.g. if you need middle east arabic numbers (not those one what we call arabic numbers) you need to set the paragraph style to that language and if no diccionary of that lnaguage is available you have to choose another related language with the same numbering system. All automatic numbers, month names, day names, etc. in that paragraph will automatically correspond to the choosen language.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                            preahkumpii Level 1

                                                                            I have looked on the in-tools.com website for information concerning support for Khmer. I have not found any information, either positive or negative. I also have not found information about a more popular language like Thai. I just sent them an email to ask them about support for Khmer.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                              Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                              You should try to find a Hunspell dictionary. These tools allow to install any available diccionary.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                                preahkumpii Level 1

                                                                                I don't have CS5.5. I think CS5.5 is the first version to support Hunspell dictionaries.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                                  Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                                  With the world plugin from in-tools you will extend the Hunspell support to CS4 and CS5 too.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                                    John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                                                    With the world plugin from in-tools you will extend the Hunspell support to CS4 and CS5 too.

                                                                                    Are you sure? THat's not what I thought and I don't see any reference to that in the World Tools Pro documentation.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Non-English page numbers/lists
                                                                                      Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                                      I checked it now, it installed on my CS5 version Mindspell which adds support of Mac OS X, GNU Hunspell and GNU Aspell (whatever that is). See screenshoot.

                                                                                      Bildschirmfoto 2012-02-12 um 21.31.29.png

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