11 Replies Latest reply on Feb 9, 2012 2:06 PM by Zack Greve

    100% K not translating to printers, why?

    Zack Greve

      Ladies and Gentleman of the forum, 


      My problem goes with using a Lanier LP550C and Lanier LD365C color printers. I am developing a new weekly program that must be printed on the aforementioned hardware. The cover is meant to be color but there interior needs to strictly 100% K. The document uses basic shapes and squares, some of the headers are black boxes with white text. While all the swatches are set for either 100% K or 0000 for white, the fringes of the text are reporting rich black/gray (2% C, 3% M, 0% Y, 50% K). My copiers are counting this information and charging me $0.06 per page. Programs that ought to cost 13c are costing 25c. pages that are strictly text appear to be fine, even pages mixed solid black object are fine.


      In addition images in Photoshop that are reporting no color values begin to report them in InDesign.


      Things I am working with:

      Windows 7

      Adobe CS4 (InDesign, Bridge, Photoshop)

      Lanier LP550 C and Lanier LD365C copiers)


      All of my attempts to work with the copier guys have failed, they blame the application.


      Can anyone help me figure this out?

       

      If need I need to I do have CS5.5 on my macbook if a newer utility could help me with the issue.

       

      I sincerely thank you all.

        • 1. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Sounds like either tranparency blending or color conversion going on at some point. My guess is the former if it's only happening at fringes. How about some screen shots?

           

          Use the camera icon on the web page to embed them like this:

           

          CameraIcon.png

          • 2. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
            Zack Greve Level 1

            Clip_01.jpg

            Here is an example of what I am finding. Let me know if I can be any more specific.

            • 3. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              OK, I have no idea what ColorPic is, but I suspect it is part of the problem, and I don't know what you are sampling.

               

              What doe ID itself report inthe Spearations Preview? What are you sampling, and how was it created? How does ColorPic get used?

              • 4. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
                Zack Greve Level 1

                ColorPic samples the pixlels at the point of your mouse to generate CMYK values. I was sampling the edge of the type between white and 50% K. I tested its accuracy by removing elements that were reporting values other than K. Perhaps using ColorPic is a mistake?

                 

                I looked up the seperations tool and toggled the CMY channels, it visibly changed the shade of the entire box. The box was made simply with the reqtangle tool and a black (50%K) color swatch. The type is the "Paper" color swatch. Is there a better way to test this sort of thing? I am self teaching myself post production using mostly resources like Lynda.com and I attend Full Sail Univeristy, but i have gaps in my InDesign knowledge when it comes this type of issue. Thank you for your patience.

                • 5. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Zack Greve wrote:

                   

                  ColorPic samples the pixlels at the point of your mouse to generate CMYK values. I was sampling the edge of the type between white and 50% K. I tested its accuracy by removing elements that were reporting values other than K. Perhaps using ColorPic is a mistake?

                   

                  I looked up the seperations tool and toggled the CMY channels, it visibly changed the shade of the entire box. The box was made simply with the reqtangle tool and a black (50%K) color swatch. The type is the "Paper" color swatch. Is there a better way to test this sort of thing? I am self teaching myself post production using mostly resources like Lynda.com and I attend Full Sail Univeristy, but i have gaps in my InDesign knowledge when it comes this type of issue. Thank you for your patience.

                  I think ColorPic is working very similar to the old Adobe Color Picker, and that it's picking the RGB values, then converting to CMYK and ruining your colors. if you aply that color to an object.

                   

                  Please do the following:

                  Select the gray rectangle.

                  Open the Swatches panel and the Color Panel and move them so you can get a screen capture of them together, then post that here with the fill color active.

                  Open the separations panel and make three more screen caps: one with the cursor outrside the type, one on the boundary where you see the shift, and one inside the type.

                  • 6. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
                    Zack Greve Level 1

                    Clip_02.jpg

                     

                    Well, I don't think I'll be using ColorPic anymore, as you can see the inconsistent reports. The above image is as requested, I will write a caption beneith each of the next images to explain which is which, since windows is autmatically removing the cursor from my screenshots.

                     

                    Clip_04_Box.jpg

                    ^ Above is a sample of the box itself

                     

                    Clip_03_fringe.jpg

                    This third image is a sample of the fringe, that is the grey area between the box and the text.

                     

                     

                    Clip_05_Text.jpg

                     

                    This final image is a sample of the white inside the text.

                     

                     

                    InDesign doesn't seem to think anything is amiss here, which causes me to fear the problem lies with the way the file is being sent to the printer. Any thoughts?

                    • 7. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      It looks like you have transparency applied to the object—the color is 0|0|0|75 and the separation output is 0|0|023. If that's the case, you would be better off making a 23% black swatch and avoid the unnecessary transparency.

                       

                       

                      What are you sending to the printer—an ID file? Try exporting a pdf using the PDF/X-1a preset. That will flatten the file and the values you see in Sep Preview will be output unchanged.

                      • 8. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        Indeed. I bet you used transparency, rather than creating a new tint swatch to make that gray. I say this because it's listed as a 75% k swatch at 100% density, yet is showing up as only 23% in the seps preview. That's not too good if you don't need to interact with something else behind it. Make a 23% K tint swatch and apply that.

                         

                        I suspect there is conversion going on diring transparency flattening. You have shadows, so it's got transpaency there, too, but you've made things far more complex than necessary. I suspect, also, that if you go to Edit > Transparency Blend Space... you'll find it's set to Document RGB, which will cause all those blacks and grays to be converted to RGB and then back to CMYK. If that's how it's set, change to Document CMYK and I think the problem will go away.

                         

                        If it's already set to CMYK, then I'm going to guess that the printer is doing the conversion during processing. Your best hope in that case might be to try exporting a PDF with colors unchanged, no embedded profiles, and print from Acrobat. I'd start with Acrobat 5 compatibility to see if the printer can handle live transparency properly, but if that doesn't work you could try PDF/X-1a, which is flattened. The downside to this is that you may get thin white "stitching" lines around transparent areas. These are flattenign artifacts that tend to show on screen and in low res prints. You might have better luck, if that happens, using the PDF optimizer in Acrobat Pro to flatten the first PDF.

                        • 9. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
                          Zack Greve Level 1

                          I tried the PDF suggestion, sadly it didn't do much to help. While I was messing around the printer setting I found what you see in the screenshot below, could this be related? Also I need to be able to use the Print Booklet feature, since the printer drivers for my printers do not support duplexing legal sized paper.The transparency bled space was set to CMYK.

                          Clip_06.jpg

                          • 10. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            Well, yes.

                             

                            Evidently the printer doesn't have a postscript driver, so you can't send it CMYK data, and if you want color on some pages and black only on others, RGB is a problem and Composite Grayscale is also a problem.

                             

                            What do you get if you make a sample file with just that gray frame and and send it as composite RGB? If it's a black click, then there's hope, but if it's color, we're done.

                            • 11. Re: 100% K not translating to printers, why?
                              Zack Greve Level 1

                              I installed a Post Script Driver for my Lanier devices. It did the trick, and InDesign's CMYK setting are being accuratly printed. Thank you very much for your help!