29 Replies Latest reply on Feb 22, 2012 2:32 PM by squidz

    All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging

    squidz Level 1

      One of my design partners who is using ID CS4 on Snow Leopard packages files she works on for me and gives them to me. EVERY time, all PostScript fonts are packages as zero bytes. OpenType or TrueType fonts will come through fine.

       

      This has been on ongoing problem and a huge headache. The issue is not religated to sending files to me. Printers and other collaborator receive these packaged fonts in the same corrupt condition.

       

      I have seen other mention this here before, but never have I seen anyone resolve this issue. I may have even posted about it last year. Is there anyone who has any insight about this problem?

       

      I have attached an image showing the font directory of the most recent package for reference. You can see the PS fonts aren't even recognized as fonts, while the OT are.

       

      Screen Shot 2012-02-16 at 10.41.52 PM.png

        • 1. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          Are the packages being delivered by email?

          • 2. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
            Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            It's very unlikely that this is being caused by InDesign. Emailing T1s destroys them, and I think zipping and/or moving them to Windows-format drives (e.g. a thumbdrive) does as well. It splits the resource fork from the data fork, which is why your T1s show up with a size of zero bytes.

             

            Solutions include:

             

            1) Using Stuffit (which I've not done in a long time)

            2) Using only Windows TrueType or cross-platform OpenType fonts (what I've done for a long time)

            • 3. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
              macinbytes Level 4

              Are they collecting the files to an external hard drive that is formatted in something other than a HFS+?

               

              Are they zipping the files before they sending them? If they are are they zipping them with something other than the contextual menu, StuffIT, or something to that effect?

               

              If they are posting to a website or a nonstandard method without zipping them you will have all the postscript font information removed due to the lack of a resource fork on many storage methods. Zip is fine if you are using the right utility for it. Ones like CleanArchiver are great if you want to remove any mac gunk, but terrilble if you want to keep it.

               

              It's not corrupting the fonts, it's simply discarding them.

              • 4. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                If they are are they zipping them with something other than the contextual menu

                 

                 

                Zip is fine if you are using the right utility for it.

                 

                 

                I knew, right after I clicked that "Add Reply" button, that there was something about my post that was stuck in the twentieth century. Thanks for the clarification.

                • 6. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                  Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  You better smile when you call me out like that, grandpa.

                  • 7. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                    macinbytes Level 4

                    Oh no sweat. I didn't even read your post that closely.

                     

                    Stuffit makes me cringe a little bit, but it is really great over zip if you are sending a lot of layouts as one zip that share common artwork. Can really trim down file size. Extreme example below.

                     

                    Screen shot 2012-02-17 at 2.35.56 PM.png

                    • 8. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                      squidz Level 1

                      Peter et al -

                       

                      I received the files by email via YouSendit. Those PS fonts were corrupt. This morning I picked up a CD with the packaged files and the same fonts are corrupt. However, I also picked up a flash drive onto which ONLY the fonts were placed...not packaged via InDesign and they are fine.

                       

                      So,

                       

                      1) it is not confined to emailing.

                      2) the packaged file in both cased WAS zipped via OSX's built in right click "Compress" menu.

                      3) the fonts are corrupt ONLY when packaged via InDesign

                      4) both computers are Mac Intel

                      5) I am running Lion while the other is runnign Snow Leopard, BUT the problem has been prevalent between us dating back nearly a year and we were both running SL.

                      • 9. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                        Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        I think that you'd need to know what filesystems were being used by the CD and by the flash drive to be certain, but it does sound suspicious - perhaps we're all wrong, and InDesign is at fault here. But I'd suspect that the CD was burned with a maximally compatible filesystem (that would hose the font data) but that the flash drive was either shipped with HFS+ or was reformatted by your design partner. Because this whole zero-bytes T1 font size issue has been discussed to death, here and elsewhere, and it's not something that InDesign does.

                        • 10. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                          Rik Ramsay Level 4

                          I had a similar issue last year with a project. Turns out the fonts we were receiving were 'protected' and so didn't collect properly when packaged. There was no workaround really for the font itself (other than finding an alterntive filetype) but we were able to create a warning for it by checking 'protected fonts' in our preflight profile, thus warning us whenever one was present. This would need to be done on her end though, before she packages the file.

                          • 11. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                            squidz Level 1

                            I don't know Joel. The CD was blank and burned via Roxio Toast just as they always had been in the past. We have never had to determine what file system a media format has been formatted in for the last 10 years. This issue sprung somewhere along with CS4/Snow Leopard. It could be that SL doesn't properly recognize PS fonts when packaging...so it could be Apple rather than Adobe. But so far it has been confined to InDeisgn CS4 packaging. I sent fonts to printers every day from my system with zero problems (CS5.5, Lion). The key here is that any time the files are packaged via IDCS4 they are fried, though I never experienced this from my system and I used CS4 upgrading to CS5.5 in May. If they are simply passed between computers or via any media as just plain ole font files, they are always fine. I can take the off a CS, flash drive, USB drive or directly off her HD via the network if we're sitting here together.

                             

                            So, one more tidbit. If the fonts are zipped straight, using OSX's zip feature and then emailed. they are also fried. So, that one fact, seems to pioint to the OS's handling of PostScript fonts either as an OS or the zip feature or some specific setting on my colleague's computer. crap.

                            • 12. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                              Try a Dropbox folder.

                               

                               

                               

                              Bob

                              • 13. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                squidz Level 1

                                Thanks Bob. I will try that.

                                • 14. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                  luchty

                                  A few things you might consider:

                                  If you're connected to a server trying to package a InDesign file. You might make sure you're connect via: smb,,,, and not afp, I've seen that do some funky things to fonts.

                                  Also, you could use TransType Pro to try and convert or format the font differently.

                                  That's my ¢2.

                                  T—

                                  • 15. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                    Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    If you're connected to a server trying to package a InDesign file. You might make sure you're connect via: smb,,,, and not afp, I've seen that do some funky things to fonts.

                                    That is a really good idea.

                                    Also, you could use TransType Pro to try and convert or format the font differently.

                                    That idea is as bad as your last one was good.

                                     

                                    I wonder how H&FJ feel about Gotham being "converted" to another format. Hey, why don't you contact them and ask 'em if your EULA permits conversion to other font formats?

                                     

                                    So, one more tidbit. If the fonts are zipped straight, using OSX's zip feature and then emailed. they are also fried. So, that one fact, seems to pioint to the OS's handling of PostScript fonts either as an OS or the zip feature or some specific setting on my colleague's computer.

                                    You must mean "if the fonts are zipped ... straight AFTER packaging ... they are also fried." You mean that, right?

                                     

                                    Try having your colleague just package, and then look in the Fonts folder BEFORE you do anything - before zipping, moving to flash drive, et cetera. If they are zero K at that point, then go look at the fonts out in the OS, from wherever they're being collected. If your colleague has only one copy of the Gotham set on the HD and, post package, the packaged fonts are zero K, then you've pretty much proved that InDesign is frying the fonts. At that point, you're looking at solutions like resetting preferences, reinstalling, stuff like that.

                                     

                                    I still think that it's more likely that something else is going on. E.g. one set of fully functional T1s in Applications/InDesign/Fonts, another set of fried 0K fonts in /Library/Fonts, InDesign is rendering the doc using the real fonts in /InDesign/Fonts but grabbing the 0K fried fonts out of /Library/Fonts for packaging. 

                                     

                                    Yeah it's farfetched, I know.

                                    • 16. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                      squidz Level 1

                                      In my scenario I'm not connected to or bundling fonts from a server. This is your run of the mill pass fonts from one designer to another between two computers.

                                       

                                      Bob, we did these experiements:

                                       

                                      - Package via InDesign, send via YouSendit. Result: fried postscript fonts

                                      - NO packaging, just zip fonts and email. Result: same

                                      - Package via InDesign, zip, burn to CD. Result: same

                                       

                                       

                                      Next up:

                                      - What you said above, package, no zip, review before doing anything else

                                      - If the above proves to contain good fonts, send to Dropbox

                                      - If the above proves to contain good fonts, zip and send to Dropbox

                                      - Also zip and drop directly from other computer

                                       

                                      I think you are right, if these things pan out, then we'll need to start digging further into her computer and fonts.

                                      • 17. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                        John Hawkinson Level 5

                                        Joel, I know we're not lawyers or comptent counsel, but:

                                        Also, you could use TransType Pro to try and convert or format the font differently.

                                        That idea is as bad as your last one was good.

                                         

                                        I wonder how H&FJ feel about Gotham being "converted" to another format. Hey, why don't you contact them and ask 'em if your EULA permits conversion to other font formats?

                                        Just because a plain language reading of a font EULA prohibits conversions (I assume) does not mean that they are legally allowed to prevent you from doing so.

                                        In this case, I'd be surprised to see them prevail in court. YMMV?

                                        • 18. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                          John Hawkinson wrote:

                                           

                                          Just because a plain language reading of a font EULA prohibits conversions (I assume) does not mean that they are legally allowed to prevent you from doing so.

                                          In this case, I'd be surprised to see them prevail in court. YMMV?

                                          I'd be surprised if they didn't. Ever spoken to an intellectual property specialist? Copyright is a funny thing, and fonts are copyrighted and licensed. I believe the owners of the copyright are entirely within their rights to restict what you may and may not do under the terms of that license.

                                          • 19. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                            John Hawkinson Level 5

                                            Peter:

                                            I'd be surprised if they didn't. Ever spoken to an intellectual property specialist? Copyright is a funny thing, and fonts are copyrighted and licensed. I believe the owners of the copyright are entirely within their rights to restict what you may and may not do under the terms of that license.

                                            Yes, I have spent a lot of time talking to and working with copyright and IP specialists, both kinds of IP (intellectual property and Internet Protocol) actually.

                                            Copyright and Licensing are two very different things, it's not a good idea to use them in the same sentence that way.

                                            Copyright principle controls distribution, not what you can do with the product in the privacy of your own home or office. That is fairly well understood.

                                            Licensing can control almost anything, but EULAs can and do claim rights that they are not legally entitlted to, and the specifics of what may be permitted varies a lot from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, including from country-to-country and quite significantly from state-to-state here in the US.

                                             

                                            As I said, I am not a lawyer, and I suggest those who care consult competent counsel. But it is not a good assumption that the plain-language reading of the EULA is going to give you a good idea of what you can and cannot do.

                                            • 20. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                              I'm not a layer either, but of necessity converting the format of a font would be making a copy of that font, and I believe that IS controlled by copyright law. I've seen cases illustrated in presentations on copyright for artists where works were deemed derivative and violations even when most viewers would see no similarity at all.

                                              • 21. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                Peter, we should probably not be having a this discussion here, but ephemeral copies are different from regular copies. Additionally, fair use doctrine (part of copyright law) generally permits copies that no one finds out about.

                                                Cases involving artists are generally about publication, which changes things radically.

                                                 

                                                If you make a technical copy of a font to solve a software problem, and do not distribute it, a copyright case against you would be ridiculous (a licensing case may or may not be).

                                                 

                                                Of course, here we are talking about potentially a one-shot distribution to a printer (which is not "publication," but it is not "in the privacy of your home or office"), and things quickly become complicated (in no small part because font licensing generally does not permit you to give your fonts to your printer unless your printer has them licensed as well, and in practice this requirement is frequently ignored). So...consult a lawyer.

                                                 

                                                But really my point is simple, and I don't think you can cogently argue against it: "Don't assume that a EULA means what it appears to mean. You may have more rights than you think."

                                                • 22. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                  squidz Level 1

                                                  Y'all are getting funny (and off topic) now. I understood Peter was focused on the comment above suggesting changing the format might solve the problem. And just so everyone breathes easy, we both have licensed full sets of Gotham as does the printer in this case.

                                                   

                                                  But really, the whole suggestion to perhaps change formats misses the point...we shoud NOT have to change formats or jump through all these hoops to simply package an InDesign file, just like we have for years, so that we can both work on the file or send it to print. The issue is with all PostScript fonts rather than any particular one.

                                                   

                                                  Back on topic:

                                                   

                                                  - Packaging the file and not zipping it shows the PostScript fonts just fine.

                                                   

                                                  I have yet to hear back from my colleague on the other experiments I mentioned above.

                                                  • 23. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                    You are 100% right -- Packaging should not lose the resource fork, and it sounds from your last post liek the problem is introduced AFTER the packaging process.

                                                    • 24. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                      John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                      But really, the whole suggestion to perhaps change formats misses the point...we shoud NOT have to change formats or jump through all these hoops to simply package an InDesign file, just like we have for years, so that we can both work on the file or send it to print. The issue is with all PostScript fonts rather than any particular one.

                                                      Well, we are kind of solution-focused here. It turns out that a lot of the time having a functional workaround is really valuable, even when you shouldn't have to do it... But anyhow, you said:

                                                       

                                                      - Packaging the file and not zipping it shows the PostScript fonts just fine.

                                                      So, if you zip and then unzip on the same machine, presumably you have a problem?

                                                       

                                                      It sounds like you are losing the resource fork when you zip, which we think is not supposed to happen...

                                                      • 25. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                        squidz Level 1

                                                        Hey John  - I hear ya. Buying software and converting formats is a workaround that is just too extreme. This issue will be conquered somehow. Tech shall not win over human perseverance. If I can finally isolate it, I'll kill it.

                                                         

                                                        I'm waiting for my colleague to execute the zip/unziep test, as well as, putting the files in my dropbox rather than emailing directly or via YouSendIt. But, it does seem at the moment the evil is happening during zipping and it could be something specific to her computer.Though it didn't used to happen.

                                                         

                                                        We've worked hundreds of projects together and passed files along with PostScript fonts back and forth for years. This thing popped up about a year ago and it's only a one way thing; from her system to anyone else's.

                                                        • 26. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                          John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                          For what it's worth, it may also have to do with unzipping.

                                                           

                                                          As a quick test, I created a file with a resource fork on a 10.7.2 system (I used "echo barbar >  test.txt/..namedfork/rsrc" to write to test.txt's resource fork), and zipped it using the Finder.

                                                           

                                                          Unzipping it using the Finder does preserve the resource fork, but unzipping using the command-line "unzip" does not; using the command-line tool writes the resource fork to __MACOSX/._test.txt (preceded by a header).

                                                           

                                                          Your milage may vary. And back on the tangent, I think the theory was you might happen to have font converstion software lying around you could use, not that you would buy it for this purpose. (And honestly, I'd be shocked if there wasn't free software to convert Type 1 fonts from a forked format to a more modern encoding and/or PFA/PFB...)

                                                          • 27. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                            Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            (And honestly, I'd be shocked if there wasn't free software to convert Type 1 fonts from a forked format to a more modern encoding and/or PFA/PFB...)

                                                             

                                                            There most certainly is! I've used a few different such tools over the years, with varying degrees of success (and varying degrees of willful ignorance of violation of probably-unenforcable shrink-wrap licenses ). One thing I'll note, however, is that even with someone who had a license for full-blown FontLab Studio and way more experience than myself in font file formats, we still had unexpected reflow in the final product. That being said, lurkers might want to trot on over to Sourceforge, if they're eager to <cough> format-shift their T1 fonts to TrueType. Mind the reflow, though. And, for the record, I'm rather less concerned with what the EULA actually says than I am with how Jon Hofler and Tobias Frere-Jones feel about it.

                                                             

                                                            Back off tangent:

                                                            But, it does seem at the moment the evil is happening during zipping and it could be something specific to her computer.Though it didn't used to happen.

                                                             

                                                            It sounds like you are losing the resource fork when you zip, which we think is not supposed to happen...

                                                             

                                                            I would suspect some kind of third-party archiving tool. I don't know enough about what's going on behind the scenes to guess about what might have happened to damage Archive Utility that would cause it to behave in this way. I suppose it must be possible, though.

                                                            • 28. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                              John Hawkinson Level 5

                                                              And, for the record, I'm rather less concerned with what the EULA actually says than I am with how Jon Hofler and Tobias Frere-Jones feel about it.

                                                              Well, I think you'd have to ask them (but it might be hard to get an honest answer). I can't imagine that in their heart-of-hearts, they think someone who bought a license to use their font should be constrained in the use of the font because of bugs in other people's software and whatnot. You licensed the font so you could use it, not so you could  get screwed over.

                                                               

                                                              I would suspect some kind of third-party archiving tool. I don't know enough about what's going on behind the scenes to guess about what might have happened to damage Archive Utility that would cause it to behave in this way. I suppose it must be possible, though.

                                                              Yeah, I was thinking that too. Perhaps a replacement compression tool was installed that takes the place of Archive Utility?

                                                               

                                                              One thing I'll note, however, is that even with someone who had a license for full-blown FontLab Studio and way more experience than myself in font file formats, we still had unexpected reflow in the final product.

                                                              So, you can't get away with just saying that without more information! I'm sure it happens, but why? What went wrong? Whose bug was it?

                                                              • 29. Re: All PostScript fonts corrupt after InDesign Packaging
                                                                squidz Level 1

                                                                Ok folks the problem has been isolated. Unfortunately, I was providing some erroneous  info due to, what we'll call a lack of understanding of the tools my colleague was/is using. Until we sat down together today to do a zip/unzip test I did not know that she was using Stuffit to zip these fonts. She didn't even know a built in zip feature was included in the OS.

                                                                 

                                                                Anyway, zipping via Stuffit and then unzipping fried the fonts. Stuffing the fonts instead of using zip format works fine. ALSO, the built in "Compress" feature of Snow Leopard worked fine. Both .sitx and Apple's .zip were successfully unzipped after travelling through email to review functioning PostScript fonts.

                                                                 

                                                                I haven't verified the version of Stuffit she's using yet, but I'm guessing it's a slightly older version and  when she upgraded to Snow Leopard Stuffit's zip format went South. That would roughly coincide with how long this has been an issue.

                                                                 

                                                                So, it WAS a third party zipping as I think John alluded to up yonder ^.

                                                                 

                                                                I truly appreciate the time y'all spent helping the troubleshooting!