18 Replies Latest reply on Feb 25, 2012 6:55 PM by AndyRayZee

    how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?

    AndyRayZee

      there might be a simple answer to this, but i can't find one anywhere!

       

      i have a very simple PSD, so i'll try to explain this super simply..

       

       

      one transparent layer, with just a pair or eyebrows, with the only added blend effect as 'multiply'

       

      one background with a face, no eyebrows.

       

      the layer blends the eyebrows in to the background face perfectly.

       

      i want to save the layer as a separate file keeping the tranparency and including the result of the multiply effect, without the background.

       

      the reason why i want to do this may confuse things, but basically i want several different eyebrow colours to be interchangeable over this face in an application that doesn't recognise the blending link with the background, so i want to save it in PS !

       

      any clues ?

       

      andy

        • 1. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
          c.pfaffenbichler Level 8

          You seem not to understand what Blend Mode means.

           

          A Blend Mode describes how the pixels of a Layer interact with the underlying pixels to determine the resulting pixels.

          For some Blend Modes that can not be »isolated« so that the Layer set to Blend Mode Normal would have the same appearance on any background.

           

          If it refers to an unchanging background (as concerns both image and relative position) on the other hand you could put the arrangement on its head, so to speak, by duplicating the background, setting it to Multiply, moving it in front on the original Multiply-layer (and setting that to Normal), Clipping Mask it (command-alt-G) and merging it (command-E).

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
            AndyRayZee Level 1

            Thanks c,

            The one thing I'd like to save is that resulting interraction of pixels you mention, in multiply blend, along with the orginal 'eyebrow' layer itself, the background 'face' is a separate avatar texture in an environment that cannot use layer interraction in the way PS does in these blend modes, so my singular problem is that i therefore want to save this resulting interraction along with the layer along with tranparency in tact as a PNG or TGA, it seems this is not possible ?

            Thanks for the quick attention !

            • 3. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
              c.pfaffenbichler Level 8

              The interaction is lost, but by multiplying the background onto the object it appears identically – but if the object should be moved the difference might become noticeable.

              Also, sometimes the Blend Mode approach is unnecessary and the result can be achieved with proper Masking and Decontamination – but this depends on the subject.

              Could you please post a screenshot of the elements with the pertinent Panels visible?

              • 4. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                AndyRayZee Level 1

                ok that answers the question I guess, there is no way to rasterize or save the pixels that appear as a result of a blend on a layer, along with that layer as a permanent 'normal' layer, correct ?

                 

                this would be excellent for our particular application but I assume not a common problem so not likely at this stage.

                we have worked around it with hand-drawn, edited and pasted replacement that doesn't require a blend, a little less than perfect but will do fine for now.

                 

                i really just wanted to know if this was even possible as it would save hours of fiddlery !

                 

                thanks so much for the help c.

                • 6. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                  c.pfaffenbichler Level 8

                  Could you please post a screenshot of the elements with the pertinent Panels visible?

                  With certain elements the effect may be able to be simulated – for example if the element is basically black and white.

                  • 7. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                    Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                    I say again... Copy Merged.  If you need part of that copy merged layer to be transparent, use a layer mask.   What am I missing?

                    • 8. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                      c.pfaffenbichler Level 8

                      I suspect the Layer’s position or the backgrounds it should interact with might not be fixed.

                      • 9. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                        AndyRayZee Level 1

                        Ok uploaded simple version here.

                         

                        no copy merged didn't work, it saves the background image, it's odd I know, but i want to save the resultant layer including the blend effect of multiply transparently without any sign of the background required for said blend function. the two separate layers will then be used in an entirely different 3D scenario where the brows will need to 'appear' blended with the background.

                         

                        hopefully i've made the images easy enough, i figure if it's hard to understand what i'm trying to do it's like Einstein said, i can't explain it simply enough

                         

                        soo..  here's capture no. 1 showing eyebrow layer with 'multiply', the surrounding hair detail is very finicky after being drawn and needs to blend with different skin shades as per the sample background layer.

                        blend layer with dark bg.jpg

                         

                        ..and this is no 2, showing the blend multiply effect on the layer with no bg visible, i want this one but with the background multiply pixels, sans background !

                        blend layer no bg.jpg

                         

                        and finally, the layer with normal and no 'multiply' along with the dark background..

                        layer showing normal with no blend over same bg.jpg

                         

                        ..hope this helps explain my quandary, it's hard to explain why in detail, but the core problem is that i need to save the layer WITH the effect pixel result of the multiply blend withOUT the background

                         

                        really thinking that PS doesn't have the ability to save these pixels in such a way, have found a work-around but this would truly save hours plus make a better finished product for the bizarred 3D application!

                         

                        thanks so much for the interest and help

                         

                        andy

                        • 10. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                          D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          You got your answer in the first reply.

                           

                          Without a background there is no blend mode. Period. It has nothing to do with what Photoshop can or cannot do. A blend mode is not a "thing", it is an interaction with the underlying layer. When there is no underlying layer the whole thing ceases to exist.

                          • 11. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                            Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)
                            • You copy the eyebrow layer and turn it off.
                            • You set the original eyebrow layer to Multiply, and with the BG and original eyebrow layers active, you do copy merged to new layer  - Ctrl ALT Shift e

                             

                            (As you say, that leaves you without the transparency.)

                             

                            • Ctrl click the copy of the eyebrow layer to load its selection
                            • Select the copy merged layer, and Ctrl j to copy just the eyebrows to a new layer with transparent background

                             

                             

                            That's what I ment from the begining.  I kind of assumed some of the steps though.

                             

                            Am I still missing something?

                            • 12. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                              Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                              D Fosse wrote:

                               

                              You got your answer in the first reply.

                               

                              Without a background there is no blend mode. Period. It has nothing to do with what Photoshop can or cannot do. A blend mode is not a "thing", it is an interaction with the underlying layer. When there is no underlying layer the whole thing ceases to exist.

                               

                              It's so hard knowing how to pitch an answer, because stuff that seems obvious might not be so to other people.  So you don't dot every i and cross every t because you don't want to patronise, and you might have missunderstood what a poster is trying to achieve anyway.

                              • 13. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                                D Fosse Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Absolutely! I've had to eat up a lot of posts because of that...

                                 

                                In this case, I think what the OP wants is the digital equivalent of an acetate sheet with translucent paint.

                                 

                                EDIT: that's an interesting analogy btw. By letting the light pass through, the color you see is the result of an interaction with what's on the other side. An underlying layer, so to speak. So even in the physical world the same rules apply.

                                • 14. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                                  Zeno Bokor Level 6

                                  The end result can be more or less achieved using a single layer but you'd have to first change the colors of your eyebrows using something like Hue/Saturation and/or Curves to get the same color as that achieved by the Multiply blend mode and then to get rid of the white parts open up the Layer Style dialog box and in the "This Layer" section ALT+drag the white slider to separate it into two and then play around with those two white sliders until all the white from the layer turns transparent.

                                  • 15. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                                    AndyRayZee Level 1

                                    all helpful suggestions, thankyou so much, we have worked around it so all is well.

                                     

                                    as you say this was answered initially with a no.

                                     

                                    I want the digital equivalent of shooting mud with a paintball and wanting to save the paintball effect on the mud, but without the mud !

                                    For now I'll stick with using non-exploding paintballs so I can pick it out of the mud easier.

                                     

                                    i do understand the blending is based on algorithms using layer and background information and not simple pixel interraction, the digital world comes to our monitors in a single dimension, unlike the real world, so it is theoretically 'possible', IF the software was engineered to do so, to that point this is actually something PS 'can not do' at this stage. i remember having PS 3.0, when layers were new, so it's definitely come a long way, no doubt will continue !

                                     

                                    i also understand that 99.9% of PS people have a priority of being able to save complicated multiple blend combinations and layer data and would never require what I'm asking be rasterized, i don't blame them for not having this functionality programmed, but it would be a nice option

                                     

                                    thanks again !

                                    andy

                                    • 16. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                                      c.pfaffenbichler Level 8

                                      but it would be a nice option

                                      While it may be theoretically feasible to have Photoshop hide several Layers of different Blend Modes in one meta-Layer, so to speak, this would bloat the file and in your case would still not work in the other application that does not even support Blend Modes.

                                      • 17. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                                        Noel Carboni Level 8

                                        AndyRayZee wrote:

                                         


                                        i want to save the resultant layer including the blend effect of multiply transparently without any sign of the background required for said blend function. the two separate layers will then be used in an entirely different 3D scenario where the brows will need to 'appear' blended with the background.

                                         

                                        I'm wading into this late in the game, but I would really like to make sure I understand you correctly...  What, exactly is this "entirely different 3D scenario where the brows will need to 'appear' blended with the background"?

                                         

                                        It's important to express EXACTLY how that blending is being done, or no one can possibly answer you.

                                         

                                        People who have attempted answers above may be assuming your blending is similar to, for example, what happens with a partially transparent PNG in a web browser.  Is it?

                                         

                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_compositing

                                         

                                        -Noel

                                        • 18. Re: how can I save a layer including the blended multiply effect, separate from background ?
                                          AndyRayZee Level 1

                                          Hi Noel

                                           

                                          the scenario is a 3D virtual world, apologies first as i'm not an expert in either PS nor the virtual world scenario so my ability to express meaningfully will be limited.

                                          also somewhat limiting is the fact I cannot upload actual created files due to IP issues in a fairly public arena, hence a failry simplified example earlier, even more limiting !

                                           

                                          as i've said we've worked around the issue quite well so it's no longer pressing to solve right now, so many other things have taken priority.

                                           

                                          i'll pass on what info i can though;

                                          the virtual world uses files converted to JPG2000 as a texture on an avatar.

                                          TGA and PNG are used for transparent layers but are converted to JPG2000 in the environment, although Alpha can be used to block and blend in many 'parts' of this virtual world, it is not the case where for example the 'eyebrow' layer is placed over the face/skin texture on an avatar.

                                           

                                          so my best attempt to show this visually is in the screenshot further up this post, figure 2, the ideal is to have the eyebrows ( where the white fuzzy stuff is replaced by the effect created by the 'multiply' blend interraction with the background layer ) saved as a PNG or TGA.

                                           

                                          our work-around is effective and doesn't require me to pursue this now, though i'm happy to continue to attempt to express what the problem was at the time as i'm always learning

                                           

                                          andy