21 Replies Latest reply: Mar 10, 2012 3:03 PM by ChristianAaltonen RSS

    Get rid of ICC profile

    ChristianAaltonen Community Member

      Hi there,

       

      I have a bunch of CMYK imges, which was converted from RGB. Some of them are in Euroscale Uncoated V2, some of them are FOGRA 39. I have my CS5 assigned to FOGRA39, so my .indd document is in FOGRA39 ICC profile.I was told by the printer, that I have to get rid of all ICC profiles, because "they can cause possible troubles". So my first question is: If I save the As, with unchecked "include profile", will the colors in the image remain absolutely the same? And what if i have files with 2 assigned ICC profiles as I mentioned abowe?

       

      And finally, if I have my whole CS5 assigned to FOGRA39, how about export the final PDF, if printer does not want any ICCs?

       

       

      Thanks in advance guys!

        • 1. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
          Jeffrey_Smith Community Member

          I will give you the simplest answer for this project. Export using PDF X-1a. You will not have to change your ID color management settings, you will not have to delete ICC profiles, you will not have to worry about ICC discrepancies, just export and you are done.

          • 2. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
            rob day CommunityMVP

            So my first question is: If I save the As, with unchecked "include profile", will the colors in the image remain absolutely the same?

            Not necessarily. How ID handles placed images with conflicting profiles depends on how you set the Color Setting’s CMYK Color Management Policy when the document was created. If you chose Preserve Embedded then any placed image with a profile that conflicts with your document's profile will get converted to document CMYK when you export.

             

            So with Preserve Embedded, if you placed a CMYK image filled with 50% black with a US Coated SWOP profile in your doc that's assigned FOGRA39, the 50% black would get converted to a CMY mix on a PDF/X-a export.

             

            If you chose Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) or Off, then InDesign would ignore the SWOP profile and the 50% black would export unchanged. If you choose Off, the document get's no assignment and is color managed by the current CMYK working space.

             

            Also keep in mind that simply opening Color Settings and changing the CM policy doesn't change a document's policy. To change a doc policy you need to check Ask When Opening before opening the doc. In that case you'll get an option to change the existing document policy.

            • 3. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
              ChristianAaltonen Community Member

              Jeffrey_Smith wrote:

               

              I will give you the simplest answer for this project. Export using PDF X-1a. You will not have to change your ID color management settings, you will not have to delete ICC profiles, you will not have to worry about ICC discrepancies, just export and you are done.

              Thank you Jeffrey. It sounds lovely symple! I will just have a look at the specification of this PDF format, just to know what i am exporting and giving to the printer.

              • 4. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                ChristianAaltonen Community Member

                Hi Rob,

                 

                thank you for your explanation. It helped me to uderstand more about the color-space-policyes. So I suppose, that in case I will create PDF with images of mixed CMYK profiles, fhe results of the same colors will be different. But please tell me - If all will be assigned to the profile during export, there will be ICC included in the PDF. But this is what my printer does not want...

                 

                To be honest, I do not understand fully when he say, that I should get rid of ICCs. Because when I am converting from camera's RGB to CMYK, i have to choose CMYK profile, which is ICC. So I have to select ICC profile anyway, when converting.

                • 5. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                  rob day CommunityMVP

                  But please tell me - If all will be assigned to the profile during export, there will be ICC included in the PDF. But this is what my printer does not want...

                   

                  If you use the default PDF/X-1a preset all color except for spot colors will be converted into your document CMYK space, or if there's no assigned profile, the current Working CMYK space. PDF/X-1a does not allow profiles to be embedded—the assumption is all color is in the correct destination CMYK space on export and no further conversions will be necessary. You only need a profile if there's going to be a color conversion.

                   

                  PDF/X-1a does include an output intent, which is not the same as a profile. Acrobat can use the output intent for displaying CMYK and it also let's your printer know what profile was used to make the final CMYK conversion. If the job is printing on a coated sheet and they see a newsprint output intent, they would be wise to reject your file.

                   

                  Your printer doesn't want to be responsible for making color conversions either on purpose or by accident, so they don't want an embedded profile. If there's a color complaint they can correctly say they output the CMYK values you provided.

                  • 6. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                    Jeffrey_Smith Community Member

                    A PDF with X-1a compliancy must meet certain criteria: 1.4 compatible, all fonts must be embedded, all color must be gray cmyk or spot, icc profiles can not be included, along with not permitting non-essential elements like annotations or forms. This PDF format is commonly submitted for the following situations: unknown printer specs, printer specifically requires X-1a, or working with a printer system that manages color independently of included icc profiles.

                     

                    My suggestion comes from hearing things like "icc profiles can cause possible troubles", but best advice is to ask your print provider their specifications.

                    • 7. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                      rob day CommunityMVP

                      unknown printer specs

                       

                      You have to know the printer specs to set the correct destination profile—you would have significant problems if the PDF/X-1a was exported for US Sheetfed Coated and the unknown destination was uncoated paper on a web press.

                       

                      PDF/X-4 is designed for unknown destinations, where every color object has a source profile. Without source profiles the correct conversions and flattening can't be made downstream when the destination is known.

                      • 8. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                        Jeffrey_Smith Community Member

                        you would have significant problems if the PDF/X-1a was exported for US Sheetfed Coated and the unknown destination was uncoated paper on a web press.

                         

                        This would only be a problem in a system where the output intent was detected, and then the system makes a cmyk to cmyk conversion based on the incorrectly specified destination.

                        • 9. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                          rob day CommunityMVP

                          and then the system makes a cmyk to cmyk conversion based on the incorrectly specified destination.

                           

                          The assumption with PDF/X-1a is that no conversions will be made at output—the exported CMYK numbers are correct for the device.

                           

                          If the US Sheetfed Coated numbers were output and printed on web newsprint without an additional conversion, the color appearance would be wrong—US Sheetfed produces a radically different separation than a newsprint profile like SNAP2007—in addition you would likely have total ink problems making the job unprintable.

                           

                          With PDF/X-4 you don't need to know the destination—an AdobeRGB image would have to have its source profile and could be correctly separated downstream for either device.

                          • 10. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                            Jeffrey_Smith Community Member

                            Rob, RGB images will be converted with different separations when different destinations (US Sheetfed Coated vs.US Web Uncoated) are set. But, does this hold true for CMYK images placed in ID exporting PDF X-1a? My comments are for Christian, who stated "Because when I am converting from camera's RGB to CMYK" and not necessarily applicable for all.

                            • 11. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                              rob day CommunityMVP

                              But, does this hold true for CMYK images placed in ID exporting PDF X-1a?

                               

                              If you place a US Sheetfed profiled image in a document assigned FOGRA it's going to get converted to FOGRA (the same way an AdobeRGB object would) on export to PDF/X-1a.

                               

                              PDF/X-1a does deliver a PDF without embedded profiles, but doesn't guarantee the delivered values are correct for the printing conditions. You have to either know the destination or be lucky. Christian does know the destination, so PDF/X-1a works assuming the printer is in fact printing to the FOGRA spec.

                              • 12. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                Jeffrey_Smith Community Member

                                Yep, you are right, the CMYK image behaved the same as a RGB image.

                                • 13. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                  ChristianAaltonen Community Member

                                  Hey,

                                   

                                  thank you guys for your contrubution!

                                   

                                  Let me ask a few more question:

                                   

                                  In real world can happen, that you are preparing document for certain printer, who wants data assigned to FOGRA39. But when you are ready, your boss come and you are told, that your data will be printed by someone else, because he offered better price. So all the source images, which you converted from source RGB profile to destination FOGRA39 have to be converted to another profile, according to the requirement of that new printer. {In case he have different requirements, of course.} I would like just to know, whether I will get different results for:

                                  • RGB > CMYK01 Profile >  CMYK02 Profile
                                  • RGB > CMYK02 Profile

                                   

                                  Does each following color profile conversation degrade the data {or color appearance} in any way? Will be the appearance of colors affected when:

                                  • CMYK01 Profile > CMYK02 Profile >  CMYK01 Profile

                                   

                                  Thank you!

                                  • 14. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                    P Spier CommunityMVP

                                    This is a major reason many users like to keep images in RGB until the final output. You then get to convert the data to the correct profile, no matter what conditions that might be.

                                     

                                    RGB to CMYK is always device dependent and usually somewhat destructive of colors since the RGB gamut is larger than CMYK and your image is likely to have out-of-gamut areas for any particular CMYK profile. If you convert to a space that is smaller than the one you want to change to later, a direct RGB > CMYK conversion will be better because it will drop or remap fewer colors. Once those colors have been converted the first time to CMYK, they won't be retrievable in a second conversion.

                                    • 15. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                      ChristianAaltonen Community Member

                                      Peter Spier wrote:

                                       

                                      This is a major reason many users like to keep images in RGB until the final output. You then get to convert the data to the correct profile, no matter what conditions that might be.

                                       

                                      RGB to CMYK is always device dependent and usually somewhat destructive of colors since the RGB gamut is larger than CMYK and your image is likely to have out-of-gamut areas for any particular CMYK profile. If you convert to a space that is smaller than the one you want to change to later, a direct RGB > CMYK conversion will be better because it will drop or remap fewer colors. Once those colors have been converted the first time to CMYK, they won't be retrievable in a second conversion.

                                      Peter,

                                       

                                      one more question and I will stop - promisse

                                       

                                      Wouldn't be best, if I place to ID images in source RGB and I use ID to convert the whole document to one final CMYK? What different is btw. this approach and converting all images to CMYK using Ps and placing them to ID afterwards?

                                      • 16. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                        rob day CommunityMVP

                                        What different is btw. this approach and converting all images to CMYK using Ps and placing them to ID afterwards?

                                         

                                        There's no meaningful difference if the Color Settings are the same—destination profile, intent, and black point compensation.

                                        • 17. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                          P Spier CommunityMVP

                                          If all you do when converting the images first in Photoshop is Image > Color Mode (presuming the working space is the intended profile) or Edit > Convert to Profile... then the results you get converting RGB to CMYK in ID will be the same. The only advantage to doing the conversion first and placing CMYK int your ID document is that you have the ability to adjust the CMYK colors and do addtional sharpening or other tweaking (and I convert first for critical work, but only when I already know the printing conditions).

                                           

                                          If there is any doubt about how something will be printed, or if there is a posibility you will want to re-purpose to another output, leaving things in RGB is far more flexible, and for an unknown print condition is the best choice since it allows you to make the conversion at the very last moment when your printer is nailed down.

                                          • 18. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                            rob day CommunityMVP

                                            To illustrate Peter's point take a saturated color like Adobe RGB 100|100|255. Convert it to US Sheetfed Uncoated and then to US Sheetfed Coated. Take the same color and convert directly to US Sheetfed Coated. The RGB>CMYK>CMYK conversion will get you something like 62|52|4|0, while the direct conversion will be a less clipped and more saturated 71|60|0|0.

                                            • 19. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                              ChristianAaltonen Community Member

                                              Nice,

                                               

                                              so it is all clear now. If I am absolutely sure about the printer's requirements, I will place CMYKs images into ID document. While is more convenient placing RGBs, if something about output-spec is unsure. I suppose, that if are RGB-based PSDs placed into ID, they will be converted to CMYK without problems, even though they contain a bunch of differents adjustment layers.

                                              • 20. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                                rob day CommunityMVP

                                                Layered files are not a problem. You do have to consider gamut when placing RGB, so in Photoshop you want turn on proof Colors with the target CMYK space as the Proof Setup when making color corrections. If you want to read the CMYK values without making a conversion you can choose Proof Colors from the Info panel's eyedropper popup and you'll get the numbers for your target CMYK.

                                                • 21. Re: Get rid of ICC profile
                                                  ChristianAaltonen Community Member

                                                  Thank you for your help, guys!