34 Replies Latest reply on Mar 18, 2012 4:16 PM by SandraChung

    Raw 7 Update?

    PeterRHawkes Level 1

      Lightroom 3 suggests, when opening a image in Photoshop CS5, that I should update Photoshop to Raw 7. When I click on Updates in Photoshop it says tehre are no updates.

       

      How do I upgrade RAW 6.6 to 7?

       

      PRH

        • 1. Re: Raw 7 Update?
          Curt Y Level 7

          ACR 6.6 is latest version.  ACR 6.7 is in Beta.

           

          ACR 7 would be for PS6 which is not out yet.

          • 2. Re: Raw 7 Update?
            PeterRHawkes Level 1

            LR 4 is obviously getting ahead of itself!

            • 3. Re: Raw 7 Update?
              Hudechrome Level 2

              Or maybe a bait to pay for CS6?

               

              Probably worth the upgrade, when it happens.

              • 4. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                PECourtejoie Adobe Community Professional

                ACR 6.7 is able to open images with the 2012 process.

                • 5. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                  Hudechrome Level 2

                  I avoid betas for my main programs like the plague!

                   

                  Sorry, it's just good business.

                  • 6. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                    PECourtejoie wrote:

                     

                    ACR 6.7 is able to open images with the 2012 process.

                     

                    And other than a disabled set of controls, which (by Lightroom users) are purported to be organized differently, I can find no image quality differences in the conversions between 6.6 and beta 6.7.

                     

                    -Noel

                    • 7. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                      Hudechrome Level 2

                      Ah, you did bite the bullet.

                       

                      I got cold feet about it. And now I know I wouldn't have gained much.

                      • 8. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                        Noel Carboni Level 8

                        What I meant above was with the 2012 process vs. the 2010 process, specifically.

                         

                        The one thing the thing does better - even with the 2010 process - is to correct Chromatic Aberration (color fringing) a little more thoroughly than its predecessor.  It compensates even for remnant color fringing that couldn't even be dialed-out with a combination of profile-based and manual controls before.

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                          Hudechrome Level 2

                          DxO does that as a matter of intention, drawn from the lens data itself.

                           

                          What can be better? The eye? I don't think so. And even if it is, it's way too laborious. You should recognize that as a software programmer yourself.

                           

                          So far, DxO has never let me down in that department. Of course, I don't own all the cameras and lenses they correct so maybe somewhere there is a problem.

                          • 10. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                            Noel Carboni Level 8

                            Actually, it appears they use the lens profile info to get most of it, then fine tune it in software by analyzing the image.  I was skeptical at first, but it's pretty clear it works.

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 11. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                              Here's the deal:  The profile is just an approximation and every lens is slightly different.

                               

                              This crop from the extreme left edge of one of my images shows 3 stages:  No CA correction, CA correction as guided by Camera Raw 6.6's profile only, and CA correction as done by 6.7 respectively.  Look carefully where bright meets dark.

                               

                              CAComparison.jpg

                               

                              -Noel

                              • 12. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                Trevor.Dennis Adobe Community Professional (Moderator)

                                I got a little Canon G1X a couple of weeks ago.  I wonder if 6.7 will open its RAW files?

                                 

                                Yeah!  Yes it does.

                                • 14. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                  Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                  Noel Carboni wrote:

                                   

                                  Actually, it appears they use the lens profile info to get most of it, then fine tune it in software by analyzing the image.

                                   

                                  I'm pretty sure that ACR7/LR4 CA removal does not use the lens profile CA data and removes it by analyzing the image only…the lens profile is only used to correct distortion and vignetting.

                                  • 15. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                    Noel Carboni Level 8

                                    Thanks for the correction, Jeff.  Whatever they're doing, it's working.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 16. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                      Hudechrome wrote:

                                       

                                      I avoid betas for my main programs like the plague!

                                       

                                      Camera Raw "betas" are really RCs (release candidates) and by and large are very close to final with little risk of problems...yes, Adobe calls them "beta" but primarily to avoid having to specifically support them officially.

                                       

                                      And yes, some stuff gets changed in the betas because once in the wild, some stuff happens. In the case of using ACR 6.7 beta for LR4 retail release, there's really not problems I'm aware of other than confusion on the part of some users because of the ACR 7 warning they get. In either case, as long as you select the option to have Lightroom render the file, you can open LR4 files into Photoshop while retaining the LR4 edits.

                                      • 17. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                        Hudechrome Level 2

                                        Well, the only time I ever used RC was in a very controlled environment at Intel, where we would cautiously repeat certain validation runs for which we already had substantial data. Not at all a working environment on which actual output is required.

                                         

                                        So, I'll pass on the RC except perhaps on my XP version for which I have no such concerns.

                                         

                                        Concerning CA , thanks for the heads up. I suspected such. Accumulating data from lab runs is a laborious task. I understand DxO devotes almost a work week to each lens. When you look at the inventory, wow!

                                         

                                        I believe Adobe will have to go there because one click correction is the way to go and is on the market. I wish Adobe would as I am getting tired of having to include another software package in my work flow. Besides, the output is a .dng, which adds a big increase to storage needs. If Adobe did that as a RAW function to run the entire file at once, as DxO does, Adobe would be there. Now, to minimize storage needs, I correct as I go, adding to the correction time. But still, it's faster than correcting by eye!

                                         

                                        And if DxO ever put in a printing package as well as RAW corrections in a par with Adobe, I would stop there.

                                         

                                        But then, as you once told me, I don't count for much, if anything. I'm just the little guy. (There. I saved you the trouble of stating that again!)

                                        • 18. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                          Noel Carboni Level 8

                                          Hudechrome wrote:

                                           

                                          Accumulating data from lab runs
                                          ...
                                          I believe Adobe will have to go there because one click correction is the way to go and is on the market.

                                           

                                          I'm not sure I understand you fully in this case, Lawrence.

                                           

                                          Camera Raw 6.6 and earlier used lens profile data (from where I don't know) to do CA correction (among others). 

                                           

                                          Camera Raw 6.7 apparently has moved on to the next level, which clearly works even better.  Are you saying you feel that Adobe should have done a better job with the profile-based transforms?

                                           

                                          -Noel

                                          • 19. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                            Hudechrome Level 2

                                            As Jeff stated the lens profile doesn't enter into it. IOW there is no profile generated by any specific lens from and for which the profile is generated.

                                             

                                            At least that's what I take from his comment. I could be wrong.

                                            • 20. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                              Noel Carboni Level 8

                                              My point is that they already HAD lens profile info, and they've actually moved BEYOND it, to something that clearly works even better.

                                               

                                              Your statement that they need to "go there" doesn't fit with this.  They've already been there!

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              • 21. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                Hudechrome Level 2

                                                That's not what I get from Jeff's statement. He says and I quote:

                                                 

                                                "I'm pretty sure that ACR7/LR4 CA removal does not use the lens profile CA data and removes it by analyzing the image only…the lens profile is only used to correct distortion and vignetting."

                                                 

                                                If you are analyzing the user image, the data will be different for each image depending on how well the image data can be analyzed. I would expect that CA done independent of the varieties existing in each image. A specific target designed for each aberration is the obvious choice, short of ray tracing!

                                                 

                                                Specifically, DxO corrects Lateral CA automatically . It's part of the lens profile. They use a module you download for your bodies and lenses when you buy the software. Other kinds of CA have to be done manually, but so far, I haven't seen anything that concerns me after their auto correction. Others might see some. The controls are there in their palettes.

                                                 

                                                Anyway, it's moot for me at this point as so far,  I still have to go to DxO for other corrections so I'll let them do it all.

                                                • 22. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                  There's no conflict in our statements.

                                                   

                                                  Read carefully:  Older ACR up to and including 6.6 used lens profiles to correct CA.  Been there, done that.

                                                   

                                                  ACR 6.7 and newer don't (per Jeff's comment).  And 6.7 does an even better job on every image I've looked at.  Ergo, lens profile based CA correction has come and gone in ACR.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 23. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                    Hudechrome Level 2

                                                    Ok, I went back to ACR and looked there. You are correct, it does say in the tool tips that the CA is derived from the profile, and one can adjust it =/- 100. My bad. I saw the sliders and assumed that the CA was still being corrected by hand. Obviously, I won't move the slider without looking which I have done in the past.

                                                     

                                                    Nonetheless, lateral CA in DxO is auto and not further adjustable.

                                                     

                                                    So now the profile is not used? That is interesting.  It begs the question: What is wrong or insufficient with the profiles?

                                                     

                                                    At any rate, I see I am out in left field with respect to what Adobe is really doing here. But it does come down to this:

                                                     

                                                    DxO does lateral CA as a function of the particular lens, and does it automatically with no further intervention by the user. Adobe does it as a combination of controls leaving it to the user to decide optimum correction, starting, until the current version an RC, with some sort of  profile. I don't understand why any intervention would be required.

                                                     

                                                    All lens corrections are available auto with one click in DxO. In PS, or LR, I stll have to fuss. So until Adobe provides one click for Lens Softness, CA, Distortion, Vignetting, Sensor noise, the nod still goes to DxO. It's like the analog days. I didn't worry about such matters. I bought lenses that were damn good at correcting this stuff, like the Leica Summicron 50mm F2.

                                                    • 24. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                      Hudechrome Level 2

                                                      After posting this, I ran across some interesting information that answers why do scene correction and not lens correction:

                                                       

                                                      "In reality, even a theoretically perfect post-processing based chromatic aberration reduction-removal-correction systems do not increase image detail as a lens that is optically well corrected for chromatic aberration would for the following reasons:

                                                      • Rescaling is only applicable to lateral chromatic aberration but there is also longitudinal chromatic aberration
                                                      • Rescaling individual color channels result in a loss of resolution from the original image
                                                      • Most camera sensors only capture a few and discrete (e.g., RGB) color channels but chromatic aberration is not discreet and occurs across the light spectrum
                                                      • The dyes used in the digital camera sensors for capturing color are not very efficient so cross-channel color contamination is unavoidable and causes, for example, the chromatic aberration in the red channel to also be blended in to the green channel along with any green chromatic aberration.

                                                      The above are closely related to the specific scene that is captured so no amount of programming and knowledge of the capturing equipment (e.g., camera and lens data) can overcome these limitations."

                                                       

                                                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration

                                                       

                                                      But also, post processing for CA cannot compensate for poor lens design, which the article also point out.

                                                      • 25. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                        Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                        Hudechrome wrote:

                                                         


                                                        So now the profile is not used? That is interesting.  It begs the question: What is wrong or insufficient with the profiles?

                                                         

                                                        See post 11 again. 

                                                         

                                                        -Noel

                                                        • 26. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                          Hudechrome Level 2

                                                          Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Hudechrome wrote:

                                                           


                                                          So now the profile is not used? That is interesting.  It begs the question: What is wrong or insufficient with the profiles?

                                                           

                                                          See post 11 again. 

                                                           

                                                          -Noel

                                                          See post 24.

                                                          • 27. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                            Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                            Post 24 didn't answer your concern about why CA correction could be done better using image info rather than generalized lens profiles, only that CA correction has its limitations and that it's better to have no CA in the first place.

                                                             

                                                            If you look closely, unless your lens is a perfect match to the one(s) used to make the profile, the results won't be perfect.  It can even differ a little in different parts of the image, so that even if you add manual correction to the profile-based correction, you won't get it all just right.  Inasmuch as there are manufacturing and materials differences, profile-based corrections will be off.  They're better than no corrections at all, but just not perfect.

                                                             

                                                            See post 27. 

                                                             

                                                            -Noel

                                                            • 28. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                              Hudechrome Level 2

                                                              From Post 24:

                                                               

                                                              The above are closely related to the specific scene that is captured so no amount of programming and knowledge of the capturing equipment (e.g., camera and lens data) can overcome these limitations."

                                                               

                                                              What this is saying to me anyway, is that scene referred corrections trumps lens data corrections, which is what you get in corrections using profiles; certainly true for DxO. Adobe has moved from profiles to scene referred. It did answer my concerns.

                                                               

                                                              I agree that we would be better off with properly corrected lenses.

                                                               

                                                              I will install 6.7 and run a series of tests, probably using the sharp branch eagle shot as the subject. I haven't decided protocols for the test yet. I would prefer to do it with Win7 than XP as XP is still a bit flakey. There is a problem with 6.7 RC which involves 2012 vs 2010. Pierre says it will work with 2012, but the notes at the end of the 6.7 RC indicates that in order to move the sliders, one has to revert to 2010, which may interfere with what I want to do.

                                                               

                                                              I'll need to free up some time.

                                                              • 29. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                                Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                                Actually, the 2010 process does the CA correction the new way as well, so it's all good.

                                                                 

                                                                -Noel

                                                                • 30. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                                  Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                   

                                                                  • 31. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                                    Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                    Ok, I bit the bullet and installed 6.7 on my “Trusted” installation. It works as Noel and others suggested, that is all controls are operating as 2010 and the new CA is available configured as 2010.

                                                                     

                                                                    I ran a series of tests. Now CA in the middle of the image is practically invisible (no, it is invisible!) ; turning CA on and off made no difference. So I searched for a likely candidate with sharp detail at a corner. At 100%, there it was, the dreaded CA!. Clicking the CA toggle and it magically disappeared. Great. I didn't have the auto corrections enabled, just CA.

                                                                     

                                                                    So I went to DxO and ran just the CA, nothing else. At 100% in ACR, there is a residual degree of CA, but barely. I had to remove my glasses and get my nose right up to the screen to see it.

                                                                     

                                                                    Conclusion? CA correction in 6.7 does a better job than CA in DxO, just barely. The result confirmed the wiki article that scene referred is better than lens data referred.

                                                                     

                                                                    It occurred to me that if the last statement is true and if 6.7 is correcting from image data, it should remove the residual from the DxO correction, and it does. In fact, the double correction is better than either alone, although if I could only pick one version, based on only one test mind you, it would likely be ACR 6.7.

                                                                     

                                                                    Finally, I restated all the corrections in DxO and looked again. With noise, softness, CA, distortion and vignetting all activated, re-examining the updated DxO showed that the residual CA has lessened but again, using CA 6.7 removed it completely.

                                                                     

                                                                    So at this point, I'll likely reset my ACR defaults to keep CA correction turned on but proceed with the use of DxO as well.

                                                                     

                                                                    I can post the images but I am unsure of exactly how so that no change occurs because of compression or any other artifacts that may get included. It's subtle stuff.

                                                                     

                                                                    Nice job, Adobe!

                                                                    • 32. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                                      SandraChung Level 1

                                                                      I don't believe that ACR v7 will just be for CS6 only, seeing as ACR 6.6 still works in CS4 and CS5.  ACR v6.7 is beta so it's bound to have quirks, but it does work. So, I know it's right pain in the butt, but until v7 comes out, either deal with minor issues processing CR2/RAW images with beta 6.7, or just process JPGs/TIFFs until the v7 is available.

                                                                       

                                                                      It's annoying, but not the end of the world.

                                                                      • 33. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                                        Noel Carboni Level 8

                                                                        Seems like a bit of wishful thinking, AnysiaC... 

                                                                         

                                                                        First off, ACR 6.6 does not work in Photoshop CS4 as far as I can tell, and second, it's a pretty well-known policy that Adobe releases new major versions of Camera Raw with major versions of Photoshop, and there is no cross-compatibility.

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        AnysiaC wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        just process JPGs/TIFFs until the v7 is available.

                                                                         

                                                                        It's annoying, but not the end of the world.

                                                                         

                                                                        Lastly, DNG is your best alternative for raw file handling when your native Photoshop version doesn't directly open your raw files, not JPEG or TIFF.

                                                                         

                                                                        -Noel

                                                                        • 34. Re: Raw 7 Update?
                                                                          SandraChung Level 1

                                                                          My bad about the compatibility, Noel. That's what I get for reading while tired.  I read articles where someone said they did get it to work, but in a round about way. 

                                                                           

                                                                          Also, Not everyone wants to install yet another program, then convert, then open, but waiting/saving the CR2 files until there is a viable non beta (or just keep using the working beta), working with the JPGs is a solution for those wanting to use just one program, and have a smoother workflow, not having to juggle, you can open the G1X jpgs in camera Raw. Is it as in depth as ACR opening CR2s? No, but does work.