23 Replies Latest reply: Apr 2, 2012 10:07 AM by Jon Geddes RSS

    Layer break not on cell boundary

    Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

      I recently authored a dual DVD for glass mastering in Encore CS5 and this is what the Mastering Company emailed my client "

       

      Our Premastering Dept gets this message " Layer break not on cell boundary"
      which means that there may be a problem on some players when the dvd goes from layer0 to layer1,
      they can stop for example.

      Face to this risk, we have to ask your approval before we go ahead with production with this master,
      or you send us a new master revised by your authoring studio.
      "

       

      Does anyone know how to fix this.

       

      Thank you.

        • 1. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
          neil wilkes MVP

          How did you set the Layer Break?

          Where is it supposed to be placed in your project?

          If you used Encore, then it might have been automatically set and this sometimes does not work.

          Also, did Encore transcode your footage to MPEG-2 or did you use a pre-cooked MPEG-2 file?

          If the latter, it is possible your layer break is not on a properly configured chapter point - do you have chapter points in your main film?

          Aso, how did you supply the final master - DDP images or a playable DVD+R DL disc?

          Finally, are you on a mac or a PC?

           

          Sorry for the questions, but if you can let me know the answers I think I can help you through this one.

          • 2. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
            Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

            Thanks for the reply Neil:

             

            1. The layer break was set automatically by Adobe Encore.
            2. I am not sure where the layer break is supposed to be as Encore has always done this automatically for other non replicated dual layer DVDs.
            3. I used Adobe dynamic link from Premiere CS5 for encore to create the DVD image.
            4. The final master was supplied on DVD+R DL
            5. And I am based on a PC.

             

            Thank you

            • 3. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
              neil wilkes MVP

              Okay.

              Can you try exporting your project to a folder.

              Then, go grab a copy of the excellent PGCEdit and open the folder in this.

              It will tell you exactly where the layer break is located and should be able to correct this problem.

              (To open the title itself, simply "open DVD" and broswe to the VIDEO_TS folder and it will be opened up)

               

              To open the main timeline for analysis, double-click on it in the left-hand tree (see screenshot below where it is highlighted in grey and will open up to the view you see)

              PGCedit.PNG

               

              It's not really that big a deal, and PGCEdit will be able to fix this.

              See this forum post for a detailed description of what is going on here, and what it really means.

              What has most likely happened - and PGCEdit will confirm this - is that the layer break will be flagged as seamless.

              This is a logical impossibility as the player must refocus, and this is the reason some discs carry the disclaimer that "the layer break may trigger a slight pause in playback" on their packaging. If PGCEdit tells you the layer break is flagged as seamless, reset to non-seamless & go with it.

               

              I would then use IMGburn to make your final disc for replication.

              • 4. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                neil wilkes MVP

                CAVEAT

                 

                PGCedit is incredibly powerful, and if misused may result in an unplayable disc.

                ALways test before sending to replication, and if there are any issues then reload your automatically backed up files that PGCedit will createfor you.

                They are just the IFO files, and very small - simply take them, copy them & paste back into your original VIDEO_TS folder to get things back how they were.

                 

                No DVD author should be without this invaluable tool - and please, please donate to the creators if you find it useful.

                • 5. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                  Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                  Thanks for that information Neil. The other thing I have come to realise as well since I still have the encore project, can't I simply export that to a DDP image in Encore, or the layer break will still cause the error. I have tried exporting another project to DPP and it has created two layers, Layer 0 and Layer 1 all in two separate folders. Will that help at all or the fact that the layer not being on cell boundary will still create the error.

                  • 6. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                    Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                    Hello I have had a go with PGCedit and here is a screenshot of what I see.

                    PGCedit.gif

                    I can see there is a check box highlighted in yellow. Is this where the layer break should be.

                    • 7. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                      neil wilkes MVP

                      Yes, it is.

                      That actually looks correct to me - I wonder if PGCedit automatically corrected the problem? It should automatically pick the best place & set the flag correctly.....

                      Easiest way to check is to create a disc using IMGburn now, from the folder you opened in PGCedit.

                      If the break is correctly set, IMGburn will do one of 2 things:

                      1 - If there is only one place it can go, it will just use that & burn.

                      2 - If there are options, it will present you with a list of possible locations, along with the option to preview them, and a grading as to the suitability of the location.

                       

                      Another, superb option, is to allow PGCedit to do it all for you.

                      See this guide on exactly how to set everything up properly - it is invaluable, and a great introduction to this awesome tool

                       

                      All this done, you will now have a working disc. BUT - we can also try to find out exactly what Encore is up to, if you feel like doing it.....

                      What I would be inclined to do is create a few Chapter Points in Encore by doing the following (instead of using Dynamic Linking) if you cannot add chapter points with Dynamic Link.

                      (I do not know if you can do this or not, as I have never tried. If you CAN add Chapter Points to a dynamically linked source file, then you do not need to render to interim file types)

                      1 - Render out your interim file from PPro to your usual file type. If source is all DV AVI, then render to DV AVI and WAVE file for audio.

                      2 - Import these into your project, and set up the disc as normal.

                      3 - Set a selection of Chapter Points in the main film, at suitable places.

                      NB - I would look to place these at Scene changes, ideally with black video & no sound....but you may not be able to do this.

                      Export the project to a folder, and take a look in PGCedit at what you see....or else load the resulting folder into IMGburn, and see what options it gives you for the Layer Break.

                      The beauty of these apps is that you can preview where the break point is - in PGCedit, click on the black arrow at the far right of the cell where the layer break is, and it will bring up a still of the exact point. In IMGburn, just tell it to preview and it will launch a player & do this for you.

                      The reason for jumping through these hoops is purely to give you some options, and to try & ascertain exactly what Encore is up to.

                       

                      DDP images over written discs.

                      If Encore is flagging the layer break as seamless, you might still get the error if mastering to a DDP image - Again, I do not use this part, as I always premaster in a different application.

                      Now, although the error can be ignored you do run the risk of getting playability issues because the player might lose it's location........see the thread I linked to earlier for details.

                      DDP images are better to send than a written disc mainly because of the built-in error correction.....and the sad but true fact that written discs can contain errors.

                       

                      Some basic pointers for using PGCedit are needed, I think.

                      Before you open the folder, go to the Options menu.

                      Make certain that the options for "input/output" have the setting "when saving, leave at least 32kb of space between IFO and BUP" is checked.

                      Basically, everything on that page should be checked.

                      Also, in the Command Editor section, make sure the option to "highlight errors, GOTO targets and dead commands" is checked.

                       

                      I hope this all helps.

                      • 8. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                        neil wilkes MVP

                        Did you also download & install all the plugins for PGCedit?

                        Well, well worth doing.......you get access to some really neat stuff.

                         

                        EDIT

                        It seems that PGCedit will almost certainly have set the right placefor the break, but if you study the guide I just linked to, it walks you through the whole process.

                        • 9. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                          Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                          Thanks for the advise on sorting this issue for me. But before I proceed I would like to check whether I am in the right direction.

                           

                          What I have done is I mounted the original DVD image with Magic disc, then copied the video_ts folder and the DVD rom (text file) to a folder on my disk. I then opened this folder with PGCedit and saved it right away.

                           

                          1. The yellow box which was previously flagged in yellow, Do I have to check it or leave it unchecked?
                          2. I am about to create the ISO now following the save of the same project.
                          3. Below is the screenshot of where I am right now. Shall I just click OK to proceed without clicking or checking any boxes?
                          4. Does this means the layer break issue has now been corrected and the disc can be mastered without any errors being flagged.

                          PGCedit_2.gif

                           

                          Does this means

                          • 10. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                            Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                            Furthermore I have tried Preview with LB and noticed the pause from cell 49 to cell 50, both pictures and audio. When I clicked Preview PGC and jumped to cell 49, it played seamlessly to Cell 50 without pause or anything disturbing. So which way will it be playing here?

                            • 11. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                              neil wilkes MVP

                              I would leave the box unchecked - this is the seamless/non seamless flag.

                              Setting to non seamless forces a flushing out of the buffers, which although doing this might cause a slight pause in playback on certain machines will definitely prevent similar players skipping forwards or otherwise losing their place in a timeline that is literally split in the DVD.

                              Some players will sail through this with no issues at all, and you will not even see the LB has been crossed.

                              Others will trigger a slight transition pause.

                              • 12. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                                OK! Thanks for the quick reply Neil. In my earlier picture there is another check box highlighted in yellow. Shall I leave that unchecked as well, coz I have just realised that in the above picture there is a seamless check box which I shouldn't have checked and would like to believe that you are talking about that one. What about the one in the earlier picture.

                                 

                                Thank you

                                • 13. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                  neil wilkes MVP

                                  Seamless Layer Break must *not* be activated.

                                  In PGCedit & the second screen, these must be off - it is on in the second screenshot.

                                  As it says, not supported - meaning replication will flag this as an error.

                                  It may make players lose their place.....

                                  • 14. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                    Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                                    Thank you very much Neil for walking me through this process. I will be going ahead and creating the DVD image now ready for shipping tomorrow morning. Many thanks!!

                                    • 15. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                      neil wilkes MVP

                                      Please keep me informed as to how it comes out?

                                      These type of settings have always worked for us, so they ought to work for you.

                                       

                                      The problem we face with PreMastering DVD is that it becomes an excercise in the art of compromise to get the best possible compatibility.

                                      • 16. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                        Jon Geddes Community Member

                                        I don't believe Encore ever sets the seamless layer break flag as far as I know. In fact, when we create dual layer ISO's, we always have to manually choose the layer break while burning in ImgBurn, as the layer break info is not included with the ISO. I would recommend creating a DDP image for the replicator instead of providing them with a dual layer disc, especially since there are only two brands of Dual Layer discs that actually work (Verbatim and Falcon Media Pro), and you must burn at a slow speed for those to work. Never let Encore automatically set the layer break unless you don't care about where the pause occurs. You want to manually set the layer break when there is a natural pause in the video. Sometimes this is at the begining of a timeline, menu, or even at a chapter point.

                                         

                                        Sometimes you will build a test image and see that there were no good spots to place a layer break, which usually occurs with very full dual layer discs or when you don't have frequent chapter points in your videos, so the layer break is placed in the middle of a chapter and stalls playback at a very bad time. What you can do then is go back into the Encore project, locate where the layer break was originally placed, then find a spot right around that location where you would rather have it pause for the break, such as while there is low/no audio and not while someone is in the middle of saying something, then place a chapter point. That chapter point will then become a perfect spot for the layer break.

                                        • 17. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                          Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                                          I beleive I have fixed the issue now. The layer break which was highlighted by both Imgburn and PgcEdit was in the middle of the play as Jon highlighted. So I shifted the layer break to the next chapter point which has been originally linked with a bright light (white transition). So is this the cell boundary which will not be picked by replicators?

                                          • 18. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                            Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                                            Forgot to ask, shall I copy this image as a DVD ROM or burn it like a DVD Video?

                                            • 19. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                              Jon Geddes Community Member

                                              If you create a DDP image, then you don't have to worry about the replicator choosing anything. Your files that you send to the replicator will already have the layer break defined. Is there a reason why you aren't sending them the DDP image?

                                              • 20. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                                Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                                                Apparently Neil earlier said that:

                                                If Encore is flagging the layer break as seamless, you might still get the error if mastering to a DDP image
                                                In Encore, the box which says "if possible use existing layer break" is checked and greyed out, thats why I had to work around. The project has got multiple sequences and 7 menus which I let encore transcode them automatically, all dynamically linked from Premiere Pro. I feared that if I transcode them to mpeg 2 DVD in AME, I might run the risk of exceeding the Dual layer capacity. I did encode the main timeline to mpeg 2 dvd but when encore created the DVD the audio and pictures were out of sync.

                                                • 21. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                                  Jon Geddes Community Member

                                                  You can always encode in the Adobe Media Encoder or a third party application before bringing them into Encore, and use a bitrate calculator to make sure you do not exceed capacity. You will just have to factor in motion menus as well.

                                                  • 22. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                                    Shadreck Rukweza Community Member

                                                    Just a quick update on this issue. About two weeks today I uploaded the ISO image to the replicators' Aspera site and they told me that same issues existed on that ISO despite shifting the layer break to a chapter point using IMGburn. However they then requested that I submit a DDP image. After uploading the DDP image they confirmed that the DDP image was good and went ahead with production. So it appears that the DDP image fixed everything despite being created in the same project which created a problematic DVD image.

                                                     

                                                    My conclusion to this thread is that ENCORE CS5 can create a Dual Layer DDP image for replication despite the layer break point. I would like to suugest that there was no need to explore the powerful use of PGCedit and IMGburn for this reason, but the exposure to these products developed my understanding of DVD authoring as a whole.

                                                     

                                                    Thank you guys who participated in this thread and will be updating you once the DVD is being distributed, because I need to grab one and see where the layer break exists.

                                                     

                                                    Good day!

                                                    • 23. Re: Layer break not on cell boundary
                                                      Jon Geddes Community Member

                                                      As I mentioned before, the Layer Break info is not included in an ISO image. This is why you must select a layer break when burning a dual layer image with ImgBurn, and why the replicator was giving you trouble. They don't like being the one's to choose the layer break, especially when it's in the middle of a video, as it must be carefully and sometimes creatively chosen. The DDP image contains the layer break info, which is why I recommended (twice) that you submit this to the replicator instead of an ISO image. Glad to hear you got it all worked out.