Thanks for the clarification Jeff. Oh well, for a while there was hope.
Personally I have absolutely no interest in alternatives. The is no reason nor excuse good enough to can a perfectly good technology which many companies have invested millions developing for. Adobe, please find a way for someone to take up the torch. You owe us, your loyal customers and clients, that much.
Hello I am the creator of edoboard.com
For us it will be the end of the product I have no time to reinvest to find & develop an alternative solution.
However I found that UC engine may matches some of the features needed http://ucengine.af83.com/ to do a porting.
In the meantime I will prepare a 'memorial page' with videos of the product .
Jeff, atleast allow us to create accounts for 3 more months. We have clients who use their own accounts for using our component. Now without account creation option, they are stuck and our component is rendered USELESS.
Adobe is ruining our business completely. We are really small and now we can no longer sell our component. I'm at loss of words. How can you have a migration plan so sudden. Google and all other companies offer a plan of atleast 6 months.
would Adobe consider selling or licensing the LCCS source if a company would be interested in carrying the LCCS business forward?
I don't talk about my company, but there seems to be quite an interrest for LCCS, so maybe a company like Influxis would be interested to take over.
It would be a win/win for everybody because some have invested a lot in LCCS...
If it could be an option, and you announce that, we could forward the message to potential acquirer.
Just a clarification from someone in the room that day. Adobe didn't say they would donate LCCS to Spoon.
First, Spoon is not the recipient of any code donations at all. Any code that Adobe has donated is to Apache, not to Spoon.
Now, the post being refered to is badly worded. It is actually not so much a post as just a live blogging of the events and slides of the summit as they were appearing. Here is the wording from that post and I added some clarification in square brackets .
Adobe will do the following…
- [Determine] Whether FalconJS can be contributed before Falcon AS is complete
- Plan for when we contribute Falcon AS via Apache
- [Establisn the] Duration of runtime support commitment for Flex applications
- [Decide upon the] Availability and duration of new and renewed Adobe Flex SDK support contracts
- [Evaluate whether they will make] Open source contribution of related technologies:
blazeds.net, server-side AS, LCDS, LCCS, TLF, Gravity, FXG, OSMF
The audience asked about LCDS, LCCS, TLF, FXG, OSMF, etc. on Day 1 and Adobe didn't have an answer. On Day 2 Adobe came back and said they still could not answer. However, they made a todo list of things they would do... that is the list you see above. So, it was on their to-do list to get us final answers on these items, but they didn't say they would give it to Spoon or Apache.
On that list so far, they have finsihed the first 4 tasks as of the Flex whitepaper. For the 5th task, the open source one, they made a commitment on BlazeDS, however, no final answer has been given on the others to the best of my knowledge.
If you want to see it yourself, I believe this is all in the last 45 minutes or so of the videos from day 2.
Thank you all for your candid feedback. I hear you and Adobe hears you and we are taking a look at some other possible options to ease your transition from LCCS. This research will take some time but we will work as quickly as possible. I will post additional information as soon as it is available. Thanks for your continued patience. If you want to have a 1 on 1 conversation with me you can reach me at email@example.com. I would be happy to setup a time to discuss with you.
The fact that you are looking at possible options is great news. This is wholeheartedly appreciated.
One additional aspect I'd like to add to the conversation is that if Adobe has costs/losses associated with keeping the service up and running, the developement community should be polled about our willingness to pay more for the service. I'm sure there are people in the same position as myself who had planned for much greater use of the service once our products have gone into production. There may be other cost structures, including a simple rate increase, that would enable Adobe to keep it running for an extension of the currently planned shutdown schedule without that cost burden.
I'm not sure how relevant this suggestion is, but my point is that if bottom line cost is an issue, we should explore solutions.
thank you jeff for some encouraging news. it's good to know that some discussion is still possible here.
Thanks for starting this thread.
Are you saying that LCCS is built on top of FMS "ALONE" ?
Or is it that FMS is one of the peices in the puzzle?
For supporting large number of user, one node solution will be a no no for us.
We definitely need to have some clustered solution.
My first impression was that there is LCDS/BlazeDS also somewhere in the puzzle and you
use that to cluster your servers.
Anyway, I would like to know how we can do the clustering, load balancing and failovers?
Thanks for the reassuring news Jeff! When you say "ease the transition from LCCS", you mean transition from the brand and not the functionality, right?
And I would have no problem paying more for the service bandwidth as well!
In response to amma-adobe,
FMS is just one component of LCCS, but FMS does not do it's own load balancing and fail over.
Some of the components required for LCCS fail-over are technologies that require a license. This is another complication as far as open sourcing is concerned I would think.
I have been developing for a while on a new project with LCCS. Having heard on the potential demise of it, I have a few pointers for potential alternatives.
If you just need shared data (not video, not screen sharing), I really like union server: http://www.unionplatform.com/
If you want free, open source (I haven't found much on the flex side, but a lot on the server side) : http://www.bigbluebutton.org/ <- This has some awesome possibilities for a good LCCS migration. I think if we all pitch in, we could probably convert it straight across with the Flex LCCS libraries we have. Red5 does not do RTMFP, however.
Last but not least is Wowza & FMS. An excellent comparison chart can be found here: http://askmeflash.com/article/10/comparison-wowza-vs-fms-vs-red5
Is there any way you think you can talk Adobe into allowing us to use the LCCS libraries on the flex side? So we can ignore:
* ADOBE CONFIDENTIAL
* Copyright [2007-2010] Adobe Systems Incorporated
* All Rights Reserved.
* NOTICE: All information contained herein is, and remains
* the property of Adobe Systems Incorporated and its suppliers,
* if any. The intellectual and technical concepts contained
* herein are proprietary to Adobe Systems Incorporated and its
* suppliers and are protected by trade secret or copyright law.
* Dissemination of this information or reproduction of this material
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This will allow us to create some migrations easier.
The only reason my company decided to invest in LCCS was the ability to do remote viewing and controling. Does anyone know of an alternative that allows for this?
I was looking at BigBlueButton too! It does seem like a workable alternative. Do they allow for room provisioning and external authentication?
The problem with every alternative I've looked at is that they all lack some feature(s) that LCCS has and which are absolutely needed for my site.
Thanks for your response.
Are you saying that Adobe has licensed that technology from someone else?
I am wondering what that technology stack is, that is used to do LCCS
We could also possibly buy the license then, given that Adobe is not going
to support it any longer.
Is LCDS/BlazeDS part of LCCS or not?
BBB does not do room provisioning, nor does it do authentication.
External authentication is easy enough. You can build one against your own server in less than 100 lines of code, or use other authentication services like OAuth against a number of sites like facebook, google, yahoo etc.
So, for those interested, I have decided to create server-side code that will be cross-platform for LCCS to resolve to Red5, FMS, or Wowza. It will ulitimately require some tweaking of the Flex side libraries, but it should be able to keep most of our existing LCCS projects intact.
A few caveats though:
1.) I will be doing this so that you can purchase your own server license & hardware & internet services, I will not be creating an Adobe server cloud. I am definately a novice when it comes to hardware.
2.) I will try my very best to have the first set of code ready by August on demo servers.
3.) It's going to take a lot of work, so anyone interested in helping either financially or through coding please contact me. mattcommark [ at ] yahoo.com
This sounds great @mattcom. I would be very interested. I've been looking at Wowza - if we can simply replace the RTC components to interact with Wowza, that would save most of the time for developers. We could simply change the room URLs to point to another service and at least for whiteboarding, video, audio and chat, that could work. Screen sharing is another beast.
We are using the Screen sharing from LCCS but as soon as we discovered that Adobe will end it, we started developing our own. So maybe in a near future we will be able to provide it to anyone who needs.
The good news is that, right now, we already provide our real-time technology to developers and corporations. We don't have pre-built components as LCCS does, but we do offer highly scalable real-time technology so you can build your own synchronized components or anything you want. It is easy to provision rooms / groups where members can send and receive real-time messages and synchronize changes and events.
This technology can also be used to push notifications, realtime data, live dashboards, etc...
We also offer live audio/video out-of-the-box so you can integrate a webconference to your app pretty quickly. It is low-latency and high quality audio and video.
You can see our B2C product that uses our technology at http://www.pligus.com (please notice that it this product is running on a Brazilian server, videoconference quality will be much higher if we were to deploy near your customers).
Those who are interested can contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org I think we are an excelent alternative!
When you say you are creating your own screen sharing, I am wondering if this would involve some kind of 3rd party plug in, are you simply capturing the Flash Player's display and sending it across the wire (I have found this to be quite slow) or have you managed to leverage the "builtin" adobe plugin that LCCS activates? I ask because for what I am doing, the first solution is not an option as most of my users do not have rights to install new software (while the current LCCS solution worked fine). Thanks in advance!
P.S. Does anyone know if Adobe is monitoring this thread? I have not seen them respond to much here and there are a lot of paying customers who are just looking for some kind of guidance.
Message was edited by: philswe
We are in a very early-stage of our screen sharing development. But I can say that, as of now, the users will have to install a plug in. You think that your users would have the rights to run a Java Applet instead?
I didn't know it was possible to capture the Flash Player's display. How do you do that, it captures the entire desktop? Is the image quality good? You think that is possible to make it fast enough?
And I guess it's not possible or legal to leverage the builtin adobe plugin, so we didn't even try this path.
Adobe has heard it before but here it goes again: it would be great if the user's screen was available as a webcam is, so we could get and broadcast it ourselves.
Not too sure about the Java Applet but these would be some very locked down corporate type PCs.
You can capture an image of the stage but not the desktop so that is pretty limited. I messed around with it awhile back and the problem was one of compression. To do effective screen streaming you need a codec that simply sends compressed differences in the images and key frames (as the webcam does) and I never got past sending 4 frames a second. Also, there was no remote control. In all, unusable.
I was hoping that someone from Adobe would say, "Since we are cutting all you customers off, here is a way to leverage our built in technology". Since they are leaving us out in the cold, I don't see what harm that could do.
I can't say what Adobe uses for cluster management and failover of FMS servers, but I don't think this forum is the place to coordinate an effort to rebuild this or other components of the LCCS platform. I don't believe components of LCCS can be plugged in piecemeal. It's a complex platform with some components that could be open sourced easily but other components that are either proprietary to Adobe(screen sharing), tied into internal Adobe systems(payments) or licensed from 3rd parties. Any effort to replace LCCS in it's entirety would require a lot of coordination, cooperation from Adobe engineers and time. The members of the LCCS team are the only people who are in a position to put some kind of an estimate on the full scale of this.
The OpenTok platform may be able to help your customers as they transition out of LCCS.
TokBox, the company behind OpenTok, has been delivering live face-to-face video through the web since 2007. We have helped American Idol, Coke and over 30,000 startups and websites bring the emotion of live video communication to their site or app.
@mattcom - I also would be very interested in this, if it can be done. Although I have a strong background in IT, I am pretty much a novice when it comes to setting up/managing servers, let alone something like this. I was reading the BBB FAQ page and they recommended having a dedicated server with quad core X3450 cpu and 4GB memory. And, they also "recommend that you use BBB for on line classes totaling twenty five (25) users or less. This may be one class of 25 users, 2 x 12, 5 x 5, etc." Well, that solution is unworkable!
@BarryC16 - I agree that rebuilding the components could be a formidable task, but what other option do we have. I only need the basic components (video chat, whiteboard, notes), so if these can be ported over to to work on another server/backend without too much difficulty then why not? Again, the alternatives are either lacking in functionality, or they cost too much.
I have looked at TokBox and it seems like a great tool for video chat - lot's of documentation, a good API, and several libraries. However, it's far from a comprehensive solution.
I'm just hoping that Jeff and the Adobe management come back with something that will help ease our worries.
@phaseblue - I understand your point. Each of are using different subsets of LCCS that are unavailable anywhere else and we have built businesses on the belief that this platform would be around long enough for those businesses to mature to the point where we could invest in building those components ourselves. Our best hope is that Adobe helps us by extending the shutdown date by at least an extra year. In your case, just like mine... the XMPP layer of LCCS is vital for these collaborative components. Tokbox do not have that yet, but they are looking into adding at least the basic messagin layer. Whiteboarding is a little bit more complex.
Personally, I am going to wait to see what Adobe comes up with and then try to build my own messaging system on top of Red5 and also see what Tokbox provides over the next few months. My gut feeling is that Adobe will do something once they realize that the announced shutdown date will mean quite a few of us being put out of business.
great to find you here.
Your tool is built upon wowza I think?
It's great, but I think you really do not need
Why did you stop AIR for mobile ability?
If you would provide text chat, whiteboard, screen sharing and real event handling opentok would be an alternative.
Also providing flex components or just shared managers, shared model components would be great for the beginning.
As you see, you are far away from LCCS or our point of view, but I trust in you going this way :-)
When I say transition I mean that LCCS won't continue in it's current form as an Adobe hosted services. I'll do my best to preserve as much functionality as possible. The discussions in this forum are helping me understand what's valuable to you.
Thank you for your efforts. I'm adding one more vote to keep the screen sharing functionality.
Maybe just add a parameter where users can specify / point to their own FMS server... Wouldn't even need to open source the component or anything like that. Only make the server side code available, if any.
It would be even better if the screen share dialog was completely generic or customizable.
Hi LCSS Lives,
With AIR for mobile we just weren't getting the performance we needed from this platform, didn't see this as a prioritiy for Adobe, and are now focused on better solutions for mobile.
Have you noticed our new iOS SDK - launched just last week!
On the logo treatment, are you referring to the very small icon that appears in the rollover state?
Your mail said that a 1000$ free usage was granted, and no PPU account will be charged, but what happens if our business get an usage above 1000$ ?
About the 3 solutions proposed:
- Open Source. I read the following in another old thread "and in any case the application has large ties with our controlling application server, that in turn has some ties with other Adobe services so it would need a lot of cleanup to make it work standalone anyway". But what exactly this amount of work is? Can anyone else than Adobe help to do the clean up? Is Adobe evaluating this possibility to clean up the server side code to get LCCS work in stand alone? What will be the consequences regarding the number of users allowed per room? It seems to mean that open sourcing and for example giving it Apache, is possible regarding the client side AS3 code, why not doing it at least?
- Flash Media Server. "LCCS is an application built on top of FMS. I've spoken with some customers that are planning to build the LCCS features they need on top of an FMS server. " would it be possible to share it? the main issue with this solution is that we need to start from scratch, very hard solution for small businesses!
- FMS hosting services: http://www.influxis.com/ does FMS hosting. Would it be possible to make a deal with influxis to make them help to get the work done to make LCCS work as standalone? influxis has a lot to gain in term of new customers. You could even make a deal with them to allow them to use your third party Adobes Licenced code for server side, at least to make LCCS work as before for one more year or so, giving much more time to find a better solution and getting rid of Adobes license at the end. Would it be possible?
The $1000/month limit was chosen based on historical usage and we determined it to be a safe level for all with room to grow. If an increase is required we can do that but all indicators are that it won't be. I think you have nicely enumerated the options we have to consider right now. However, I can't offer up any code that someone else has built on top of FMS. That's really up to them. Another hosting provider or Open Source are the possible options. I don't have much to report on these right now, but I'll provide an update when i do.
hi Jeff, thanks a lot for answering.
Its more clear about 1000$ limit for me now
But what exactly is the amount of work to clean up the server side code? Can anyone else than Adobe help to do the clean up? Is Adobe evaluating this possibility to clean up the server side code to get LCCS work in stand alone or is it out of the scope?
I would also be very interested to get a working solution hosted in amazon Web Services FMS instances, as it is highly scalable.
Last question, which i understand is difficult for you, but would you have a previous time scale of when we can expect a more clear idea of what can be done and what can't?
You can understand that if it takes 6 month, we cant wait and be stuck with only 3 month to find another solution.
@BarryC16, I completely agree with you. I do believe that Jeff is trying to find a solution that is in all of our best interests and we should just wait and see what they come up with.
@Sebpatu2000 I had previously written Jeff an email and described exactly what you said in point 3 of your solutions. Adobe could charge influxis.com a small licensing fee for the LCCS backend code. It would be a win-win for all parties involved.
@ Jeff Stanier
It has been over month, any news on the LCCS service shutdown and viable alternatives? My company is in the same situation as everyone else that built a product around LCCS, it is no small task to re-write these parts for any new LCCS solution. Our company just found out recently of the news so we have had a late start on trying to switch to an alternate solution. We need a viable solution for us and have little or no impact on our customer base, what is Adobe doing to help in this matter? I can tell you for a fact if a viable solution is not found, this will have a huge impact on public relations of adobe. No company will want to ever do any business with a company that abandons its customers like the way Adobe has abandoned us. If it does not get resolved reasonably and to our satisfaction I can assure you Adobe will be in court for the next 3 years and I will never again base any software product on their technology or tools ever again! Adobe actions in this matter is unprecedented and shameful!
You beat me to it. I was going to post an update today since I had a couple of inquiries about the status of things. I don't have much to report at this point other than discussions are ongoing and taking longer than I expected. I still think however that we'll be able to come to an agreement with a hosting partner to take over the service. I will provide more info as soon as I can but it would be premature to do so at this point,
Thanks for you continued patience.
Thanks for the update Jeff,
Your efforts to make this happen are VERY MUCH appreciated.
thank you for the response. I hope Adobe will be more tranparent in this matter. Time is very important and there is going to be a point of no return on this issue. You have people either waiting on Adobe to provide an alternative host before the December deadline or you have others trying to re-write parts of their product. So Adobe needs to be very open in this process and let us know a timeline when an alternative hosting provide can be available for us to access or if not at all.
The reason why:
1. So people can not waiste development time re-writing code and focus on only the changes needed for using the alternate hosting provider and still work on enhancements to their product.
2. if a hosting provider will not be in time of the deadline, adobe should extend the deadline.
3. if hosting is out of the question then the people waiting for adobe to provide an alternative hosting solution can then begin re-writing parts with an alternative to LCCS
I'll be as transparent as I can. However, this involves a negotiation and legal contract so I can't disclose details until both parties are ready.