1 2 3 2 Previous Next 75 Replies Latest reply: May 9, 2012 4:28 AM by Peter Spier Go to original post RSS
      • 50. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
        Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

        Eugene Tyson wrote:

         

        One has to ask - why should a million print designers and/or companies bother upgrading to CS6, when they can do all the things already required with even CS3 or CS4 or CS5/5.5?

         

        There really hasn't been any great enhancements for print designers since CS3 - so why should Print Designers/Companies bother upgrading?

        Well, I'm a print designer, as I said, and I mostly don't need footnote/endnote functionality, so that's a minor inconvenience to me (but I definitely support improvement for those of you who use them every day), but I can say without hesistation that CS5 is miles ahead for me in productivity over CS3. I still work in CS3 for one client and it's a pain.

         

        I happen to prefer CS5 to CS5.5, but if I did a lot with anchored objects I'd probably feel differently. Grayscale export is probably the one thing that would get me to make the move to CS6 for my workflow, but it's not life or death unless I decide to start doing ePub.

        • 51. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

          Eugene Tyson wrote:

          I think though - seriously - it's the fact they keep adding Nodes to frames - I think it might be a bit daunting for a newbie.

           

          Anchor node

          Lock node

          Corner node

          Content nrabber

          and now - The Link node

          I'm not a newbie, and that's possibly the thing I dislike the most about the new version -- UI clutter.

          • 52. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
            Eugene Tyson MVP

            Peter Spier wrote:

             

            Well, I'm a print designer, as I said, and I mostly don't need footnote/endnote functionality, so that's a minor inconvenience to me (but I definitely support improvement for those of you who use them every day), but I can say without hesistation that CS5 is miles ahead for me in productivity over CS3. I still work in CS3 for one client and it's a pain.

             

            I do require better footnoting - especially where footnotes fall inside a Table - and I most definitely need the ability to span the columns with the footnotes.

             

            That aside, there other long document features I don't use that often, like Indexes and complex TOCs - but I do see a need to improve on them.

             

            Cross-references can be used in both print and mobile

            Indexes can be used in both

            Complex TOCs can be used in both

            Working with Markers

            Book File - could have massive improvements

             

             

            Footnotes don't even fall into the category of Long Document features - it's simply a feature that was introduced and not improved on.

             

             

            An improvement [enhancement] to any of these features would be welcome and benefit both the Print and Mobile market.

             

            I happen to prefer CS5 to CS5.5, but if I did a lot with anchored objects I'd probably feel differently. Grayscale export is probably the one thing that would get me to make the move to CS6 for my workflow, but it's not life or death unless I decide to start doing ePub.

             

            I have to admit - the Anchor Object node is very nice in CS5.5 but it lacks functionality. Yes it's functional, but the way I did anchored objects in CS5 was to Anchor one object, create the object style - then anchor objects and apply the Object Style.

             

            This made it very easy to adjust the Anchor in the Object Style.

             

            CS5.5 you drag the node to where you want to anchor - done - I've already started to forget to create the object style. Thus - globally changing the Anchor because a problem if needs be.

             

            Begs the question, would new users be aware to create an Object Style for their anchored object - and also - if you do create a Style for an anchored object - shouldn't you be able to specify that all Anchored objects be given this Style when you drag a node to an anchored position?

            • 53. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
              John Hawkinson Community Member

              I haven't spent enough time working in CS6 for real to draw an opinion, but I'm definitely skeptical of my (and others') ability to guess how much they'll be affected by UI changes, and to know how much we'll habituate to them.

               

              But it really doesn't matter -- the only way new features will be seen by the critical mass of users is if they are on by default. So even "bad" new features ought to be turned on visibly by deault, unless they have a hugely hugely negative impact. I can't imagine a world where a new link badge is hugely hugely negative (but I can easily imagine it being annoying for everyone).

               

              So I definitely support this stuff being turned on by default, if it gets added to the product.

              I suppose I'm also influenced by how easy it is to figure out how to turn it off.

              Empirically, users had a lot of trouble figuring out that the Content Grabber was turned off with "View > Extras > Hide Content Grabber"; in part because nobody knew it was called that.

               

              Given that the Link Badge actually looks like a chainlink:

              Screen Shot 2012-04-25 at 8.49.22 AM.png

              I'm optimistic users will have an easier time turning it off ("View > Extras > Hide Link Badge") than they do the Content Grabber.

              Perhaps that's naive?

              Only real testing with real users will tell...

              • 54. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                Jay Chevako Community Member

                Grayscale export is probably the one thing that would get me to make the move to CS6 for my workflow, but it's not life or death unless I decide to start doing ePub.

                Would you really trust an automatic grayscale function to convert your layouts?
                Jay

                • 55. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                  Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                  Depends on what the document is. One scenario would be for replacing the current workflow where the student newpaper I advise currently print to postscript and distill because we can't be sure that all of the ads we get will be grayscale, nor do we have a staff that is necessarily capable at any particular time of converting photos prior to placing. ID's conversion will be as good as Acrobat's or Photoshop or Illustrator's un-tweaked conversions, and you can pick an output profile, so for non-critical stuff, why not?

                  • 56. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                    Jay Chevako Community Member

                    Non critical and un tweaked being the key words. I tried the print to file with a b&w driver once (back in the pagemaker days), and had a nice red, green and blue pie chart turn into an unrecognizable blob of grey. Ever since I've always done custom conversions in Photoshop for grayscale photos, plus whatever needed to be done in ID and Ill.
                    Jay

                    • 57. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                      BobLevine UGM-MVPs

                      Why not? We trust it to convert RGB to CMYK.

                       

                       

                       

                      Bob

                      • 58. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                        Jay Chevako Community Member

                        A bigger difference in gamut, rgb is a lot closer to cmyk, than it is to grayscale.

                        Jay

                        • 59. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                          There are also workflows wher everything is already grayscale and users want to export a true grayscale (one plate) PDF, with an embedded grayscale profile. I expect that will be a more common usage.

                          • 60. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                            Jay Chevako Community Member

                            Untitled-2.jpg

                            This is a reproduction of my pie chart example, turned to grayscale automatically (in Illustrator).

                             

                            After receiving multiple rgb ads for what was supposed to be grayscale, I can see Peter's usage, although I fix those when I receive them.

                            Jay

                            • 61. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                              Steve Werner ACP/MVPs

                              Here's is an RGB chart created in InDesign CS6. The pie segments were 255R 0G 0B, 0R 255G 0B and 0R 0G 255B.

                               

                              Top is the original in screen capture from InDesign.

                               

                              RGBChart.jpg

                               

                              Bottom is by choosing View > Proof Setup > Custom > Dot Gain 15%

                               

                              RGBChart_15Gray.jpg

                              • 62. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                Jay Chevako Community Member

                                Out of curiosity try

                                R  151  40  46

                                G  51  163  87

                                B  51  52  255

                                 

                                 

                                Jay

                                • 63. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                  Eugene Tyson MVP

                                  Large text only publication with Crop Marks will trigger registration (use of CMYK) to create the crop marks - which always trigger the filter at our printers when they run it through their preflight.

                                   

                                  We get urgent messages "Your Layout is CMYK please FIX!!!!"

                                   

                                  And in reality it's just the crop marks.

                                  • 64. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                    Steve Werner ACP/MVPs

                                    Here you go — Your RGB Values:

                                     

                                    RGB_Jay.jpg

                                    Gray preview - 15% Dot Gain setting

                                     

                                    Gray_Jay.jpg

                                    • 65. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                      Jay Chevako Community Member

                                      Not the same values, but pretty impressive, it looks good for a quick and dirty conversion. I'll still stick to the black and white adjustments in photoshop, and manual adjustments elswhere for the critical jobs.

                                      Jay

                                      • 66. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                        Eugene Tyson MVP

                                        Absolutely - for critical jobs it's important to adjust the image in B/W and not really on an automatic conversion.

                                         

                                        I do very similar things for critical jobs in print full colour - it requires a lot of treatment to images in photoshop before placing and creating pdfs.

                                         

                                        But for quick and dirty jobs, a CMYK conversion of the RGB images placed in the document is ideal - and much quicker.

                                         

                                         

                                        Different workflows etc.

                                         

                                         

                                        Anyway - I'm delighted that I can now get Black only crop marks for text publications now.

                                        • 67. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                          Stix Hart Community Member

                                          I'm trialling CS6 (and will probably get the Cloud, because it's new and shiny and I get Premiere Pro which I like the sound of but will never use!) but I am extremely underwhelmed with the PDF forms feature.  Is it possible to add and customise the stuff in the supplied library?  Unless Adobe give it a serious overhaul and make it so you can somehow specify things like the type of font that it will use etc it's going to be another half baked half assed feature thrown in there simply to add a bullet point to the marketers spiel.

                                          • 68. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                            Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                            Unfortunately, for forms, it's the Acrobat team, not the ID team, that has final control. For the moment, what you see is all you get.

                                            • 69. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                              Steve Werner ACP/MVPs

                                              Stix,

                                               

                                              In addition to what Peter said, keep in mind that Adobe has no control over the PDF specification any more. It's in the hands of an ISO committee. InDesign couldn't willy nilly add stuff to PDF forms that weren't supported by the standard and would work with all the PDF readers out there.

                                              • 70. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                                Stix Hart Community Member

                                                Steve Werner wrote:

                                                 

                                                InDesign couldn't willy nilly add stuff to PDF forms that weren't supported by the standard and would work with all the PDF readers out there.

                                                If you can add a specific feature to a PDF form in Acrobat why would they stop you doing that same thing in InDesign? 

                                                • 71. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                                  John Hawkinson Community Member

                                                  Weeeeeellll....

                                                  in this case, I think it is more about InDesign not having the capability to export form configurations as well as Acrobat Pro is able to. And that has nothing to do with the spec.

                                                   

                                                  In fairness to the InDesign team, they are limited by the knobs, tools, and access that are given to them by the Adobe PDF Library, which is a software resource maintained by the Acrobat team (I think; I'm not an expert on internal Adobe team breakdowns).

                                                   

                                                  But while perhaps we can understand why the InDesign team doesn't have the tools to do a whole lot more, we can certainly blame Adobe for that. It's not related to the standards process.

                                                  • 72. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                                    Stix Hart Community Member

                                                    What I would like to know if is there is any way to get access to that bit of code that is a PDF form text field in the pre populated library.  Then you could change it...

                                                    • 73. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                                      John Hawkinson Community Member

                                                      Err, what? "pre populated library"? Do you mean the Adobe PDF Library? It's not like an InDesign Library. It's a library in the C++ sense. A collection of functions and classes and data structures that export an interface to another program.

                                                       

                                                      When you say "code," what do you mean? Surely not the C++ code? Because there's like no chance that Adobe's going to release that. But there isn't any other stuff that could be represented by "code" here, unless I'm missing something. I suppose there's the "PDF code" which you can see on inspection by looking at the result of the PDF export.

                                                       

                                                      But I think that's not what you mean? I am sorely confused.

                                                      • 74. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                                        Stix Hart Community Member

                                                        I mean the "Sample Buttons and Forms" library that you get to from the Buttons and Forms panel menu.

                                                        • 75. Re: OT: What is CS6's equivalent to the "Donut"?
                                                          Peter Spier ACP/MVPs

                                                          Stix Hart wrote:

                                                           

                                                          If you can add a specific feature to a PDF form in Acrobat why would they stop you doing that same thing in InDesign? 

                                                          I believe some of it has to do with document security, and I too am basically ignorant of internals, but I seem to remember it being metioned that ID doesn't have the security tools available in Acrobat and that limits some of the functionality that can be included.

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