[Locked] How to backup Elements 2018 Camera RAW Database in Windows 7

[Frans2001]

If I want to use the Camera RAW Database to save my image settings (rather then using xmp sidecars or DNG formatting), how do I back the database up and where do I find this file in the first place? Can't find this information in the user's guide or Adobe website. Adobe chat support didn't know and hopefully somebody is going to call me back.

Hopefully, some of you can help me out.

[yachikag68482697]

Hi,

For Windows, you can find it at '%appdata%/adobe/cameraraw' and on Mac it's' Users/[user name]/Library/Preferences/'

Thanks,

Yachika

[MichelBParis]

Camera raw in Elements 12 - Using the database instead of xmp sidecar files

I got no answer by that time, which is not surprising. I don't think that a single Elements user has ever chosen that option which is probably kept as a 'legacy' feature for Photoshop users who don't have the organizer (the Elements ACR is a limited version of the full one).

The ACR editing data are already saved anyway in the main database of your catalog (catalog.pseXXdb), that would mean duplication.  The normal backup process takes care of those raw settings backup.  I would not trust that solution when backing up or converting catalog versions or to Lightroom.

So, I imagine there is something you don't want about sidecar files. They are so small they are not an issue for me and there is even a debate in the Lightroom forum because expert users want the ability to create them for jpegs and other formats where the raw settings can be written in the metadata header of the media files themselves.

[Frans2001]

Michel,

Now I'm confused: are you telling that when I choose Save image settings in Camera RAW database that the metadata is NOT saved there but somewhere in the catalog? That would be highly illogical, IMO.

Further, what is the "normal backup process"? I normally back up my RAW files and in the future, as it looks now, also the Database file.

You're right, I prefer the database approach over the sidecars, one of the reasons being that Elements isn't consistent with sidecars: it will ignore the sidecar setting if the file is a not-Read-only DNG file.

[TheDigitalDog]

Frans2001  wrote

Michel,

Now I'm confused: are you telling that when I choose Save image settings in Camera RAW database that the metadata is NOT saved there but somewhere in the catalog? That would be highly illogical, IMO.

What catalog?Do tell us specifically how Elements isn't consistent with sidecar files if you can. DNGs are NOT read only as such, there's ZERO reason for sidecar files, the data is embedded into the DNG container.

[Frans2001]

I was addressing my questions to Michel since he seems to indicate that editing data is saved in the catalog, while all indications are that editing data is saved in the Camera RAW database if PSE is set that way. Michel also seems to indicate that backups of editing data is backed up "normally". If you don't have anything to contribute, then please don't butt in.

[TheDigitalDog]

Frans2001  wrote

I was addressing my questions to Michel since he seems to indicate that editing data is saved in the catalog, while all indications are that editing data is saved in the Camera RAW database if PSE is set that way. Michel also seems to indicate that backups of editing data is backed up "normally". If you don't have anything to contribute, then please don't butt in.

Nothing anywhere is backed up all by itself, read the URL provided to learn the basics of backing up data.

Doesn't matter, when doing this correctly, where the edits are stored, THEY WILL BE BACKED UP.

I don't know why you can't understand how really simple this is, OR will listen to anyone, including Michael who told you why your concept of backing up just a file you cannot find on your computer is folly:

The normal backup process takes care of those raw settings backup.  I would not trust that solution when backing up or converting catalog versions or to Lightroom.

[Frans2001]

Please go away.

[TheDigitalDog]

Request denied.

[MichelBParis]

Please be patient Franz and Andrew.

The question is a legitimate one and deserves some more explanations because in this forum for and by Elements users, a number of those users, whether beginners or enthusiasts, ignore basic rules about backing up and how the catalogs in the organizer are working.  I did not get an answer in my previous question.

Camera raw in Elements 12 - Using the database instead of xmp sidecar files

On the other hand I imagine that even even if PSE users will totally ignore the options about saving raw adjustments, there will be Photoshop users migrating to PSE to avoid subscription and Lightroom users needing an additional and compatible pixel editor. And there, Andrew, serious understanding of the specifics of PSE is generally lacking. You have always been a master for me for color management as well as for general LR and ACR discussions, but I wonder if you know enough about Elements ACR and organizer?

To begin with, when you open the ACR dialog in Elements, you have an icon on the top which lets you choose if you store your settings in a database or in xmp sidecar files. That menu is skipped by 99+% of PSE users. The default is sidecar file. Which means that the database is practically never used and its location does not matter.  The same ACR dialog lets you 'Save' the file as DNG.

So 3 options:

- default xmp sidecar

- same with DNG saving option

- ACR database (also DNG option)

Now, just look at the ACR properties in a raw (or ACR edited jpeg) file in the 'Information' dialog of the editor. You'll see the ACR settings of that mage;  you won't see where it is stored. If you have an xmp sidecar, delete it. Look again at the information: it's still there.

Michel,

Now I'm confused: are you telling that when I choose Save image settings in Camera RAW database that the metadata is NOT saved there but somewhere in the catalog? That would be highly illogical, IMO.

I have never bothered to try to store in the ACR database, but the above test shows that the information is stored in the catalog, in the main sqlite 'catalog.pseXXdb' database. Remember that Elements is even older than Lightroom but its catalog management is quite similar. The same logic applies to Lightroom. The data managed in the catalog in both softwares, and managing an ACR database which would be only a subset of the main catalog would NOT be logical for me. That gives room for a host of questions and choices about the pros and cons of each of the three above options, but maybe that's too much to discuss in this thread.

About the backup process in Elements.

The main difference with Lightroom is that the process does not only saves the catalog folder. It also saves the whole library, media files and sidecars. Just like a zipped folder, it stores everything and can recreate the folder structure anywhere else on a new drive or master folder. That's why it is used not only for backup purposes, but to migrate to another computer. The PSE user base is not as 'technical' as the one of Photoshop or Lightroom, so that is a smart choice.

[TheDigitalDog]

MichelBParis  wrote

have never bothered to try to store in the ACR database, but the above test shows that the information is stored in the catalog, in the main sqlite 'catalog.pseXXdb' database. Remember that Elements is even older than Lightroom but its catalog management is quite similar. The same logic applies to Lightroom. The data managed in the catalog in both softwares, and managing an ACR database which would be only a subset of the main catalog would NOT be logical for me.

The OP has been told in numerous other forums not to do what he's asking and as you've just outlined above.

But this will continue. Do you know the name of the Adobe Camera Raw database (if not that) and if it contains the same data as that in the catalog?

No, I don't know squat about Elements. You're spot on. I do know a lot about ACR/LR. Hence the questions so all three sites Frans is posting on gets the correct and ideal data. TIA.

[MichelBParis]

thedigitaldog  wrote

Do you know the name of the Adobe Camera Raw database (if not that) and if it contains the same data as that in the catalog?

I have just searched for the Camera Raw database in the locatation I found it for PSE12. The folder exists, but I don't find such a database:

I have found the location of the 'Database' file in C:/Users/[my name]/AppData/Roaming/Adobe/CameraRaw/

So I have tried the following test with an older Elements version (not to take risks with my present catalogs). I have chosen the preference to store the settings in the database rather than sidecar files. That setting is sticky but I can't find any new database file anywhere. I suppose it would be an sqlite one like in LR and the organizer (an organizer catalog has several sqlite database files).

I must admit I am puzzled. I am starting to believe that I did not really find a database file with PSE12 in my first post .

Also, since the ACR preference is not linked to a given catalog, I don't see how the same external database for a PSE version would cover all files in different catalogs. Now you may perfectly include the same raw file in several catalogs and assign different sliders values, which are kept in each catalog. In the organizer, you can 'write metadata to files', in which case the sidecar xmp file is updated in the current catalog. If you have the same file in two different catalogs, you are going to lose sync between the sidecar and the catalog.

The organizer has no way like LR to update the catalog from the sidecar, you would have to delete and re-import the raw file.

We are not straying away from the backup issue: if you use the integrated way to backup and restore in the organizer, the catalog itself ist totally backed up including all raw edit settings. All your files including the xmp sidecars are also backed up. Even if you have the very bad idea to store a raw file in two catalogs with different settings, they are backed up;  but of course, when restoring, beware of overwriting the sidecars.

It's important to know that LR can convert organizer catalogs and keep all the ACR settings.

My safety and backup strategy as an amateur:

- I have a single main catalog and auxiliary ones for totally different images and purpose.

- I use the organizer backup/restore system periodically, especially when moving to new computer.

- I use Windows Synctoy after each big editing session for library AND catalog to an external drive, which is much faster.

- my backups and Sync are stored on different drives kept on different locations.

- I periodically use the 'Write Metadata to files' option both for redundant safety and ability to share with other softwares. That writes the metadata to sidecar files or metadata header for jpegs (including raw settings).

- I also use Acronis to backup whole drives especially after big updates in OS and software.

[TheDigitalDog]

MichelBParis  wrote

thedigitaldog   wrote

Do you know the name of the Adobe Camera Raw database (if not that) and if it contains the same data as that in the catalog?

I have just searched for the Camera Raw database in the locatation I found it for PSE12. The folder exists, but I don't find such a database:

I have found the location of the 'Database' file in C:/Users/[my name]/AppData/Roaming/Adobe/CameraRaw/

So I have tried the following test with an older Elements version (not to take risks with my present catalogs). I have chosen the preference to store the settings in the database rather than sidecar files. That setting is sticky but I can't find any new database file anywhere. I suppose it would be an sqlite one like in LR and the organizer (an organizer catalog has several sqlite database files).

I must admit I am puzzled. I am starting to believe that I did not really find a database file with PSE12 in my first post .

I can only share my experience on the Mac, with ACR in Photoshop proper. This is a cross post from one of the three forums Frans has asked about this:

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=127045.msg1072151#msg1072151

Maybe a Mac is in order. I changed my ACR settings for Photoshop to store XMP in the Adobe Camera Raw database.

Opened a raw, made an edit.

Did a search on the Mac for "Adobe Camera Raw Database" instead of Google.

Found this NEW document.

Of course, since I back up the entire drive, every file, it's going to get backed up. Why backup the entire drive? To boot off of, to ensure I never lose ANY document there.

Maybe searching for Adobe Camera Raw Database on Windows is far, far more difficult.

So with a modern version of ACR (10), Mojave, it's simple to find this database file and it does update after editing a raw. But Windows, Elements?

The bottom line here is the request is iffy at best. In the 3rd forum I now this topic has been posted, today, Frans states he found this database file and it's named just "Database". Maybe you can search for such a file and run a similar test as I did to see if indeed it updates (or even exists). This isn't the case on the Mac with ACR as seen above.

Your backup strategy mimics mine more or less (differing software, OS etc) but I think this is idea of finding and backing up one file that one assumes has a set of edits is folly. Backup everything. Or anything you can't afford to lose. Back it up to multiple drives, some offsite (or to the cloud). You'll be hard pressed to every lose anything. You'll never need to know where some obscure but necessary file resides (visible or otherwise). But all this was told to Frans in the two other forums.

I'd still love to hear from an official Adobe staff person about this and I sent a PM to Yachika.

[MichelBParis]

thedigitaldog  wrote

The bottom line here is the request is iffy at best. In the 3rd forum I now this topic has been posted, today, Frans states he found this database file and it's named just "Database". Maybe you can search for such a file and run a similar test as I did to see if indeed it updates (or even exists). This isn't the case on the Mac with ACR as seen above.

That's mysterious...

After the test I made this morning to use the database option in PSE14, nothing was created in the path mentionned in my first answer, and now, there it is:

I am going now to have a look at it.

Edit:

The Database.db3 opens as an sqlite file... but it's password protected!!!!

I'd still love to hear from an official Adobe staff person about this and I sent a PM to Yachika.

Yes, I hope we'll get more info.

[TheDigitalDog]

So to be clear, the answer above in green isn't correct as far as we (you) know yet, right?

Franz has stated on 'the other' forum (one of three) that the database is named database, nothing more. And he's now certain based on the answer above, this IS where the edits are being applied to be backed up. But it now sounds that's not the case based on your sound testing, is that correct?

On my end, on a Mac, it was pretty easy to see that the document clearly named Adobe Camera Raw Database is being updated when a raw is edited. Now that doesn't tell us for certain the 'edits' he wants is baked into that file. It's updated. It didn't exist before my testing because I don't have ACR set to store anything in a database file, in fact everything gets saved in my DNGs (and/or my LR catalog). On my end it wasn't at all difficult to find a file NOT named 'database' but a file I fully expect to be built by ACR and indeed it was.

Much or all of this is pointless really. If Frans would simply accept the numerous differing advise from posters about staying away from this rabbit hole and just backing up every document, it would not matter a lick what or where the edits are stored; they would be backed up. But rabbit holes are a historical reality not here but in the other two forums were this goes on, and on, and on.....

An answer from Adobe would be useful.

I'd email Thomas Knoll who's always been very open and supportive of my direct questions over the decades but based on this massive rabbit hole, I really don't think it's worth either of our time; he's a busy fellow.

[Frans2001]

You said: "Much or all of this is pointless really. If Frans would simply accept the numerous differing advise from posters about staying away from this rabbit hole and just backing up every document, it would not matter a lick what or where the edits are stored; they would be backed up. But rabbit holes are a historical reality not here but in the other two forums were this goes on, and on, and on....."

First, using the Camera RAW database shouldn't be a "rabbit hole" unless Adobe creates them for the purpose to make my life difficult and I don't think they do. I hate sidecars and DNG's so I want to understand how to back up the database. Please do tell me how the edits are backed up since it looks like you, me and Michel aren't exactly on the same place as to where they are saved.

And lastly, stop your insults and harassments.

[TheDigitalDog]

Frans2001  wrote

First, using the Camera RAW database shouldn't be a "rabbit hole" unless Adobe creates them for the purpose to make my life difficult and I don't think they do. I hate sidecars and DNG's so I want to understand how to back up the database. Please do tell me how the edits are backed up since it looks like you, nor me, nor Michel know exactly where they are saved.

Right, Adobe is diabolically and deliberately trying to make your life difficult.

If you want to make it less difficult, learn how to backup all your files no matter where they reside. It will save you a lot of grief and perhaps that of others. You don't have to use sidecar files! You should backup important data, no matter where it may reside; learn to backup (clone) your HD.

I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it.

[Nancy OShea]

OK enough. guys.  I'm locking this thread.

[Frans2001]

Hi Michel,

I'm afraid the plot is getting thicker. Let's look at your reply #11: "Now, just look at the ACR properties in a raw (or ACR edited jpeg) file in the 'Information' dialog of the editor." What information dialog would this be? When I look at File/File Info...  I don't see such information. I only see Camera Data and RAW Data; the other fields are empty.

Here is what I did to see where the editing information is stored. Deleted Camera RAW database (yes, for me it's in the place I described, so I still think Michel's link in answer #2 is correct, not necessarily the text below the link); opened a RAW file in ACR with the save in Camera RAW database option and messed up the ACR sliders to have clearly identifiable, bad looking image; then I hit Done to add the edits to the Camera RAW database; closed PSE; opened PSE; opened this file with Image Settings and it's the bad version; with Camera RAW Defaults settings it (of course) looks like the original before messing it up; cancel; delete Camera RAW database; open image and it shows like original with the Image Settings, same with Camera RAW Defaults; with Previous Conversion settings it turns bad.

Based on this it seems to me that edits are saved to the Camera RAW database if you choose that option when opening RAW files and the Previous Conversion info is apparently saved somewhere else.

I'm still unclear about the standard backup process for PSE, but let's table that until we can figure out the issues I've brought up in this answer.

Edit, addition: Is it possible that we are mixing up Camera RAW database (used by the Editor) and catalog (used by the Organizer)? When I search for catalog.pse I get 5 results all related to the Organizer!

[TheDigitalDog]

A "normal backup process" was described to you over on the other two forums you asked the same question: one using a utility that backs up everything (clones) a drive. Then you don't have to worry where any file resides no losing any file.

https://www.dummies.com/software/for-seniors-how-to-back-up-computer-files/

[Frans2001]

I'm sorry, yachikag, but that's incorrect. Michel got it right: C:/Users/[my name]/AppData/Roaming/Adobe/CameraRaw/. I've corrected it.

I'm trying to digest what Michel wrote beyond the link and will come back if I have any questions there.